Those Who "Give Up"

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

Eventually (it might take a few generations) we humans should be able to develop a world economy that allows for regional and local specialties, in which freedom and opportunity to strive are respected, in which a comfortable level of minimum support is maintained, and which does not unduly abuse large swaths of humans or the rest of this planet or the life on it.

However it is best, if one wishes to continue to hold such an optimistic view, to avoid reading any history of the human race so far. :eek:

[flintlock]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

There is some sort of disconnect in this thread.

What rjwjr writes make good sense to me.

I was a very nicely paid IT worker. Several years ago, working in Silicon Valley, I could see that the combination of global communications and computers, along with a global transportation system powered by tankers full of cheap oil, were combining to globalize the world economy.

I recall perhaps five years ago noticing that some of the programmers who were working side by side with me, of equal caliber and value in all respects (perhaps more valuable) were coming from far away corners of the world and earning perhaps a fifth or a tenth of what I was working.

I could see at the time that such discrepancy could not last. Those two salaries, one perhaps 8X the other, were going to meet somewhere hopefully a little above the bottom value. The lower paid chap would get a raise, and if the company paying me didn't cut my salary to perhaps one-fifth what it was, they would go bankrupt. They did indeed go bankrupt, a few months after I resigned anyway.

My next job might well be mopping the floors at Wal*Mart, if the combination of my savings and retirement money aren't quite enough. Eh -- details. Life is good. Sure, I'd gladly trade in that cheap ten year old econobox I drive now for the big new shiny BMW sedan I drove before (BMW makes some sweet engines), but only if the life I chose to live allowed me the luxury of once again affording such a fine vehicle with ease.

Anyway, back to your response. I simply do not see what you see in rjwjr's reply.

• He states that "the general laborers (and to an increasing degree, a la India, the skilled careers) are in danger of further outsourcing of those jobs".
• You claim he stated "You are under the mistaken impression that every job being lost in the US is low level grunt work"

Huh? Where did rjwjr say just "low level grunt work?" He stated quite the contrary "to an increasing degree the skilled careers."

Indeed, if anything, it is you yourself flintlock stating much the same thing, just a couple of sentences later, when you state "I agree some US workers are overpaid, but that is a tiny minority."

This is not about who is a good hard working person or who is mooching off society on either welfare or excess salary (whether due to union featherbedding or Goldman Sachs thievery.) All large groups of people will have their hard workers and their lazy bums; their smarter ones and their dumber ones; the clueless and the highly skilled.

Globalization was a major trend over the last couple of centuries. From what I read we are coming off the second peak in globalization, as measured by the percentage of world GDP that is earned on trade crossing national borders. The first peak, about as high as this one, occurred just before World War I. The coal fired steam engine, powering trains and ships, opened up Europe to the agricultural heartland of America.

I cannot entirely deny that this present reply of mine is motivated by "Republican hubris", for two reasons. Part of me remains an arrogant Republican, so there is always the risk I am guilty of such thinking. Also I for the life of me do not understand why you would label rjwjr as a possible poster boy for "Republican hubris", so I cannot refute what I do not even comprehend.

What I suspect, however, is this. I suspect that it is you, flintlock, not rjwjr, who is in denial as to the pervasiveness of globalization. rjwjr is saying it's here -- eh so what -- deal with it. You are (I guess) saying globalization is just affecting a few other people's jobs -- but not the jobs of good hard working, productive, well educated people (such as flintlock and his friends?). So you are concluding that anyone (such as rjwjr) who claims that globalization is more pervasive is quite likely the poster boy for angry ranting and raving Republicans, insulting most well paid Americans.

My guess is that either you're in serious denial and quite misreading rjwjr, or else this cow is too confused to find food even when standing in the middle of a field of clover. I'm betting that you're projecting your fears of lower pay on those evil "Republicans" flintlock.

===

And now for a more positive contribution:

One of the consequences of the "end of peak cheap oil" and of the substantial collapse of the global credit bubble is a lowering of globalization. As noted in the decline of the Baltic Dry Index (BDI) and the many suggestions to focus on more local commerce (such as more local food supplies), globalization has peaked for a second time, from what was I believe a level (proportion of world GDP that is international trade) similar to what it reached before World War I.

• Business activity that depends on cheap transportation (peak oil) and/or substantial credit (FIRE industries for example) will recede, in favor of more local, self-funding equivalents.
• Business activity that depends on world wide communications (twitter from the streets of Tehran) and that does not require substantial energy or huge credit funding to sustain will continue, even blossom further.

ITulip will blossom while the automobile and FIRE industries wilt.

Perhaps I was misinterpreting what rjwjr was saying.:confused: But you missed my point by a mile.

I'm not in denial of globalism. My point is we don't need it. Or at least we didn't, until we destroyed the foundations of our own economy. Nothing you said mentioned anything about what the heck we are going to do with all these out of work people, regardless of what they USED to make. People don't get it. Globalism eventually forces socialism on us. Workers get displaced, workers end up having to be supported by taxpayers, Government must grow to provide make work jobs and entitlements for these displaced workers, they raise taxes to pay for this and Tah-da! We are no longer competitive in the "global market". I'm not saying that's "fair" either. Certainly these people who have no skills should get some. Certainly those who can't afford children shouldn't have them. But you know what? They get a vote in this country, and what do you think they are going to vote for? Lower taxes? lol. We've killed the goose that layed the golden egg in my opinion. This phony affluence we claim globalism gave us is falling apart, the bill is due, and we don't have the money.


If Republicans care nothing about the Americans who are hurt by this, then at least act in your own self interest as a Republican against socialism. Or have the neocons adopted that philosophy now also? Cow, I agree with your economic "ideology". But the reality of the situation is it will never succeed. Not in a democratic republic where every person has a vote. In the days of Kings and Queens you could just say " Let them eat cake". Umm, well , that didn't really work out too well either. But you know what I mean.


Sometimes the engine of perfect unfettered capitalism has to be turned down a notch in order to keep the engine from burning itself out. Sounds like maybe that is going to happen here soon.

[flintlock]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

Down here in Mexico, the hourly wage for a WalMart employee is $2.10(at a historical exchange rate of 10.50/1) with no benefits. Minimum wage in the US is $7.25. I see absolutely, positively no difference in job proficiency between the two when I frequent a Walmart.

By and large, US employees are grossly overpaid and most especially within the UAW. It is real simple for UAW employees and any of you guys that are reading this blog.

Well an American might say your workers are underpaid. Its all relative isn't it? We have a history of paying our working class a living wage. Mexico does not. Notice any difference how things turned historically for Mexico vs the US? It's not an accident.

I'm not some bed wetting left winger. But I don't want to live in some shit-hole country with beggars and thugs roaming the street just so Neocons can see their free market wet dream come true. :eek:

[flintlock]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

It's not your opinion, but your conviction that's troubling here.

IIRC, the $75,000 auto worker was actually a cost to the employer, including benefits, taxes and insurance, not a wage.

There is no doubt that Wall Street is not to blame, but our government is. The government makes the rules, and Wall Street uses them to its advantage.

You must admit that it's simplistic to say that Americans are overpaid when real wages have fallen steadily for the past 40 years. It may be possible that Postwar America experienced a kind of worker's irrational exuberance that led to legacy costs that were unsustainable over the long term, but that is the work of historians, and we are just looking for someone to blame and a way to fix it.

I tend to think that it's the result of governments intervening in the currency markets, particularly actions like the Plaza Accord and the current fixing of the yuan. This kind of intervention creates an opportunity for businesses and entrepreneurs capable of making large fast adjustments, while simultaneously neutering wage earners.

I see that $75,000 number misused by Republicans so many times its nauseating. I still think they are overpaid, but hey, these were Union contracts negotiated and agreed to by FREE corporations . Funny how a tough negotiation is OK when they are doing a hostile takeover but when its some group of workers then its not FAIR!

And this from someone who doesn't even like Unions.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

Perhaps I was misinterpreting what rjwjr was saying.:confused: But you missed my point by a mile.

I'm not in denial of globalism. My point is we don't need it. Or at least we didn't, until we destroyed the foundations of our own economy. Nothing you said mentioned anything about what the heck we are going to do with all these out of work people, regardless of what they USED to make. People don't get it. Globalism eventually forces socialism on us. Workers get displaced, workers end up having to be supported by taxpayers, Government must grow to provide make work jobs and entitlements for these displaced workers, they raise taxes to pay for this and Tah-da! We are no longer competitive in the "global market". I'm not saying that's "fair" either. Certainly these people who have no skills should get some. Certainly those who can't afford children shouldn't have them. But you know what? They get a vote in this country, and what do you think they are going to vote for? Lower taxes? lol. We've killed the goose that layed the golden egg.

Globalism is not the same thing as free trade. Like someone else said on here, we do not have "free trade".:rolleyes: We are headed exactly towards a bannana republic ending.

If you care nothing about the Americans who are hurt by this, then at least act in your own self interest as a Republican against socialism. Or have the neocons adopted that philosophy now also.

Ah - so we agree that globalism is there, like an angry bull in the living room, quite undeniable in its presence.

The problem is it sucks. It has led to unemployment , socialism and other ills, none of which are good.

Is that what you're saying?

I'm saying then that globalism, like bank lending and federal governments, is not inherently bad. It just sucks in many of its incarnations, especially as regards portions of the economy and politics that involve large institutions.

Indeed some incarnations of globalism, such as the wide ranging membership on iTulip, are good. I appreciate that I am able to order certain strange plant derived medicinal products from the Australian outback or well manufactured shoes from Eastern Europe. More substantially for my life for over a decade, I was able to work with other specialists in my particular areas of computer software from all around the world, which was a most profitable and productive endeavor, quite impossible before the internet. The Linux kernel to which I made some modest contributions is a wide ranging global effort that is well run, efficient and positive in its contribution both to participants and users.

Some portion of all institutions, and of all individuals, go bad, causing more harm than good. If you or I go bad, they lock us up and throw away the key -- problem solved, or at least strongly contained. The problem with overly large and dominating institutions and overly powerful tyrants is that they cannot easily be replaced or removed or contained.

The problems you describe are not essentially caused by globalism. They are caused by portions of the worlds economy, trade and industry that have been globalized in the control overly large, too difficult to dislodge or displace or circumvent, institutions.

Someday humans will figure out how to organize institutions involving hundreds of millions or billions of people in a way that is healthy, both for the individuals and the institutions. We aren't reliably there yet.

[rabot10]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

that is... bar none... the most depressing article i've ever read here.

What Metal said, glad I don't own a gun - I forgot oh my god I do own a gun

[lsa420]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

As Oswald Spengler famously elucidated, democracy always leads to plutocracy. Wall Street buys the government. The two are intimately entwined. Certainly, the present "rules" in many cases lack any sound basis and can only be explained as corruption.

That is exactly why we are supposed to have a Constitutional Republic. It is unfortunate that we have abandoned our original philosophy.

[MarkL]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

A recent Oprah episode "being happy with less"(somehow making you more enlightened) broadcast down her seemed to be working on several levels....I'm almost of the belief she is the 21st Century Goebbels.

What does this mean? I looked up Goebbels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels but still don't get the allusion. Can somebody explain how/why Oprah might be the 20th Century Goebbels? Sorry to be dense...

[MarkL]

From a Globalization Master

...it's still nearly impossible to find a politician of any strip who will admit that globalization is simply a means for the masters to reduce the pay and conditions of the masses.

Although it's unstated, your quote is very tribal. By masses, perhaps you mean "Americans." If so, you're correct. That's also what Perot was saying. But that's not what you say.

Outsourcing increases the pay and the quality of living for the people being outsourced to. The 4 people I employ in Costa Rica are very grateful for their jobs, and quite frankly need the money for things like clothes, shoes, and paint for their house, unlike their American counterparts who are crying because their 401k is down to $100k from $200k, they can't retire at 60 and also put in the new granite countertop in their kitchen. I hope to employ more Costa Ricans. Is it hard to understand why?? I'm both helping somebody that needs it more, and making a profit, and giving myself a job!

The true "masses" of India, China, and in my case Costa Rica are benefited by outsourcing. Yes, Americans "suffer", but our definition of "suffering" is to cut back on eating to the point where we only weigh 20% more than we should and keep our cars for a whole 5 years instead of 3. The only way to solve the problem is to return to being competitive. American's are in for a living standard adjustment and this is why. There is no way to put the genii of the worldwide transportation system and internet back in the bottle. We must now compete in a world economy. Our living standard may drop 25% before we become competitive again, but simultaneously people that might be starving in other country's will now have food, shelter, and clothing.

And before you yell and call me unpatriotic, I wouldn't be in business or employing ANYbody if I tried to do what I'm doing with American resources that cost 4X-5X what the CR resources do. Oh, and FYI I was also born and raised right here in the USA.

The reason I started this outsourcing company? I lost my job and couldn't get one and it was the smartest move I could come up with. So to all the underemployed people who are mentioned in the article as well as the whiny writer of this post... get off your @ss, THINK SMART, and get to work.

[flintlock]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

Ah - so we agree that globalism is there, like an angry bull in the living room, quite undeniable in its presence.

The problem is it sucks. It has led to unemployment , socialism and other ills, none of which are good.

Is that what you're saying?

I'm saying then that globalism, like bank lending and federal governments, is not inherently bad. It just sucks in many of its incarnations, especially as regards portions of the economy and politics that involve large institutions.

Indeed some incarnations of globalism, such as the wide ranging membership on iTulip, are good. I appreciate that I am able to order certain strange plant derived medicinal products from the Australian outback or well manufactured shoes from Eastern Europe. More substantially for my life for over a decade, I was able to work with other specialists in my particular areas of computer software from all around the world, which was a most profitable and productive endeavor, quite impossible before the internet. The Linux kernel to which I made some modest contributions is a wide ranging global effort that is well run, efficient and positive in its contribution both to participants and users.

Some portion of all institutions, and of all individuals, go bad, causing more harm than good. If you or I go bad, they lock us up and throw away the key -- problem solved, or at least strongly contained. The problem with overly large and dominating institutions and overly powerful tyrants is that they cannot easily be replaced or removed or contained.

The problems you describe are not essentially caused by globalism. They are caused by portions of the worlds economy, trade and industry that have been globalized in the control overly large, too difficult to dislodge or displace or circumvent, institutions.

Someday humans will figure out how to organize institutions involving hundreds of millions or billions of people in a way that is healthy, both for the individuals and the institutions. We aren't reliably there yet.

I can't disagree with any of that. Globalism has good consequences and also unintended consequences. I think history will show that for America, overall, it was negative. We had a 30 year or so boom based on borrowing. Two incomes families became the norm. Without that we would have seen the negative consequences earlier. All this debt merely held off the mobs we will see eventually if things don't turn around.

This is not what I want by the way, just what I predict based on my knowledge of the history of man. Even Kings of old had uprisings, and THEY were allowed to merely slaughter their people when they got unruly. Now we have to keep giving them what they want. American Idol.

[Quincy K]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

Well an American might say your workers are underpaid. Its all relative isn't it? We have a history of paying our working class a living wage. Mexico does not. Notice any difference how things turned historically for Mexico vs the US? It's not an accident.

I'm not some bed wetting left winger. But I don't want to live in some shit-hole country with beggars and thugs roaming the street just so Neocons can see their free market wet dream come true. :eek:

Actually, I am an American living here in Monterrey, MX, learning the language. It's not a "shit-hole" country but quite the contrary. The people(poor and rich) here are much, much nicer that their American counterparts. In fact if I weren't so concerned with their future water(scarcity) problems I would probably relocate here. Also, MX has a problems regarding their number one export of oil and budget deficits.

As for "beggars and thugs"... I would walk the roughest streets in MX before those in Compton or South Central. Those mutherfu_kers out there, they kill and maim for fun.

And I personally knew a guy first-hand that it happened to. Lost half his face, eyesight and hearing for a case of Old English 800.

The US is a very violent country that incarcerates more criminals per capita than any other nation in the world.

[flintlock]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

Actually I didn't call Mexico that, only stated I didn't want the US to become a shithole. Parts of Mexico are pretty crappy, some are beautiful, but I fear a US with similar poverty would be a lot worse. The beggars and thugs I'm talking about would be in the US. The Mexican people have been living in poverty for a long time. A sudden drop in the standard of living in the US wouldn't go down so well. It's not in our nature to "take it".

As far as overall violence, 15 years ago I would agree with you, but at least now we don't have the Army fighting drug gangs in the streets. Though we are not that far off from it.

I like Mexico. Right now I have three books on my shelf about "Living in Mexico". I actually considered moving there until I found out I couldn't work there. Ironic huh? That's been a while. Things may have changed since then. The culture is more laid back and unlike the US they still actually have a culture!

I just wanted to point out that poor hungry people do not make for a thriving country.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

The US is a very violent country that holds more criminals per capita than any other nation in the world.

Perhaps we have more criminals because we have more laws?

In any case, you generalize too much, as I suspect you would agree.

There probably are streets in Mexico I should not walk with an armed bodyguard at high noon, and I know there are streets in the U.S. I would gladly allow my young children (if I had any) to walk alone late at night.

[Quincy K]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

Actually I didn't call Mexico that, only stated I didn't want the US to become a shithole. Parts of Mexico are pretty crappy, some are beautiful, but I fear a US with similar poverty would be a lot worse. The beggars and thugs I'm talking about would be in the US. The Mexican people have been living in poverty for a long time. A sudden drop in the standard of living in the US wouldn't go down so well. It's not in our nature to "take it".

As far as overall violence, 15 years ago I would agree with you, but at least now we don't have the Army fighting drug gangs in the streets. Though we are not that far off from it.

I like Mexico. Right now I have three books on my shelf about "Living in Mexico". I actually considered moving there until I found out I couldn't work there. Ironic huh? That's been a while. Things may have changed since then. The culture is more laid back and unlike the US they still actually have a culture!

I just wanted to point out that poor hungry people do not make for a thriving country.

You can work here(I don't), that is not a problem. And you are correct. A similar level of poverty in the US would be a lot worse environment than almost any other country. We will know more between now and the of the year when many UE extended benefits start expiring in earnest(the USG is going to continue to extend them next year as deficits don't matter nearly as much as civil unrest).

I have lived in Mexico, off and on, for over two years. If you need any advice or opinions regarding Mexico, PM me and I would be more than happy to answer any of your questions off-line.

I love Mexico. But then again, I love Mexican women. Once you experience Third World Country women, you truly realize how worthless many American women are.

[cjppjc]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

I love Mexico. But then again, I love Mexican women. Once you experience Third World Country women, you truly realize how worthless many American women are.

Nice job......