Just another tricky day in America

[LargoWinch]

Re: Just another tricky day in America

The real opposition to socialism is the good old American idea of the limited government.

Amen medved!

I would add a culture of risk-taking fostering innovation.

And in case one of you forgot, which I doubt since you are reading this on iTulip; risk is synonymous with bot reward or failure.

Sadly, the "failure" part no longer apply for some industries, which successfully purchased the governments.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Just another tricky day in America

If you care to measure success as the size of the overall economy then your argument is without merit.

It's fairly well documented that socialism is unsustainable (maybe all forms of government are unsustainable?) as are the socialist-type programs in the US, specifically Social Security.

It's also hard to argue that a socialist environment makes a people stronger and better. Free-market competition is a better motivator and driver of innovation and progress. Our primary problem in the US may be trying to have a "hybrid" system, with socialistic programs and tax structures slowly gaining ground to the point that they weaken the free-market system.

Lastly, I think your arguments would be taken more seriously if they weren't laced with such republican/conservative hatred/blame. Let's be a fan of true leadership, not a puppet to party loyalty. There are idiots/crooks and potential leaders on both sides of the mainstream political parties. It would be nice to see a "vote-em-all-out" campaign get started for 2010, wouldn't it?

If we vote 'em all out, then we would end-up with the xenophobic Republican lunatics back in Congress in 2010. That would mean the Christian-right, the NRA, the English-only bunch, the tea-party bunch, and the "back-to-basics in the schools" bunch would be back..... That is NOT an alternative for me.

And Sarah Paylin (sp?) maybe in the White House in 2012? That is not an alternative. But electing Republicans on the extreme right to the Congress in 2010 would pave the way for Sarah Paylin to be elected in 2012.

Where are the moderate or liberal Republicans? Where is Collin Powell (sp?), for example?

[Raz]

Re: Just another tricky day in America

This is precisely what socialism is. First, left wing nuts create massive gov't machine and then they get really surprised it is abused by both sides. Just like Obama supporters are now pissed off because of his Wall Street support. When are you gonna get it? The real opposition to the left-wing socialism is not right-wing socialism. Whatever side abuses the gov't machine it is still based on socialist ideas, they just have different supporting constituencies and different rhetoric. None of the recent economic disasters could happen without massive gov't intervention.

The real opposition to socialism is the good old American idea of the limited government.



First, you need to understand it, if you don't want to live through it.

I already did, you can consider me a man from your future.

Thank you, Medved. Thank you for this common sense explanation by way of the manifest lessons of history.

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government." Thomas Jefferson

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." Thomas Jefferson

[medved]

Re: Just another tricky day in America

If you think socialism has not been a resounding success, may I point to the following accomplishments, achieved by government or with government programmes, which benefit the people in Canada and America:

Shasta Dam, the California Water Project, Hoover Dam, Glenn Canyon Dam, Bonneville Dam, the Golden Gate Bridge, the SF Oakland Bay Bridge, the Empire State Building, the development of atomic power by the Oak Ridge Laboratory, the development of oil and gas in Alberta and Saskatchewan, the Diefenbaker Dam in Saskatchewan, the Nelson River Project in Manitoba, the St. Lawrence Seaway, the Tennessee Valley Authority and its projects, the Interstate-Highway System, the wind-breaks on the Great Plains

These are great examples. They will allow me to show you, why you are dead wrong.

Let us leave the closed-minded socialist mindset of a North American intellectual and try to compare the achievements mentioned above to the equivalent achievements of the great socialist gov’t of the former USSR:

Turning poor agrarian country into industrial superpower, providing free education for everybody, building canal Volga-Don, Belomorkanal, Dnieper Hydroelectric Station, Krasnoyarsk Dam : http://www.sibtourguide.com/dam.html (keep in mind, Colorado river is just a little creek compared to Enisey), Baikal Amur mainline, Trans Siberian railroad, the first Earth-orbiting artificial satellite, the first man in space, the Virgin Lands Campaign etc. etc. You get the idea, although I am sure you know next to nothing about most of these projects.

Using your logic they would make the people of USSR very happy. Now ask yourself, are they? I am sure starving is a serious problem, but whenever you get enough food, try to get out of your geographical domain and present time period, and learn something about history and geography. It helps.

It is very easy to waste tons of money and manpower to build these monsters (and some of them are useful and necessary), but they don’t prove anything. Egyptian pharaohs also ran quite impressive projects, does it mean we should reinstate monarchy and slavery?

Your examples only bring back my memories of the old totalitarian slogans that supported all these projects. It was always about the greatness of the Socialist system and our obligation to sacrifice for it. Never about individual freedom and some real numbers about these sacrifices (or about projects themselves, for that matter). Socialists really like to boast about these “great achievements”. The individual is nothing, the collectivist socialist grandeur is everything. It proves, “The God is great”. And, of course, their god is government and Barack Hussein is his prophet.

Federal Deposit Insurance

– bankrupt.

Medicare,

– bankrupt.

Social Security

–bankrupt.

Pell Grants for kids to go to college

– bankrupt.

The socialism is bankrupt, long live the socialism!

[flintlock]

Re: Just another tricky day in America

These are great examples. They will allow me to show you, why you are dead wrong.

Let us leave the closed-minded socialist mindset of a North American intellectual and try to compare the achievements mentioned above to the equivalent achievements of the great socialist gov’t of the former USSR:

Turning poor agrarian country into industrial superpower, providing free education for everybody, building canal Volga-Don, Belomorkanal, Dnieper Hydroelectric Station, Krasnoyarsk Dam : http://www.sibtourguide.com/dam.html (keep in mind, Colorado river is just a little creek compared to Enisey), Baikal Amur mainline, Trans Siberian railroad, the first Earth-orbiting artificial satellite, the first man in space, the Virgin Lands Campaign etc. etc. You get the idea, although I am sure you know next to nothing about most of these projects.

Using your logic they would make the people of USSR very happy. Now ask yourself, are they? I am sure starving is a serious problem, but whenever you get enough food, try to get out of your geographical domain and present time period, and learn something about history and geography. It helps.

It is very easy to waste tons of money and manpower to build these monsters (and some of them are useful and necessary), but they don’t prove anything. Egyptian pharaohs also ran quite impressive projects, does it mean we should reinstate monarchy and slavery?

Your examples only bring back my memories of the old totalitarian slogans that supported all these projects. It was always about the greatness of the Socialist system and our obligation to sacrifice for it. Never about individual freedom and some real numbers about these sacrifices (or about projects themselves, for that matter). Socialists really like to boast about these “great achievements”. The individual is nothing, the collectivist socialist grandeur is everything. It proves, “The God is great”. And, of course, their god is government and Barack Hussein is his prophet.

– bankrupt.
– bankrupt.
–bankrupt.
– bankrupt.

The socialism is bankrupt, long live the socialism!

Should win the "Retort of the year" award!

[WildspitzE]

Re: Just another tricky day in America

These are great examples. They will allow me to show you, why you are dead wrong.

Let us leave the closed-minded socialist mindset of a North American intellectual and try to compare the achievements mentioned above to the equivalent achievements of the great socialist gov’t of the former USSR:

Turning poor agrarian country into industrial superpower, providing free education for everybody, building canal Volga-Don, Belomorkanal, Dnieper Hydroelectric Station, Krasnoyarsk Dam : http://www.sibtourguide.com/dam.html (keep in mind, Colorado river is just a little creek compared to Enisey), Baikal Amur mainline, Trans Siberian railroad, the first Earth-orbiting artificial satellite, the first man in space, the Virgin Lands Campaign etc. etc. You get the idea, although I am sure you know next to nothing about most of these projects.

Using your logic they would make the people of USSR very happy. Now ask yourself, are they? I am sure starving is a serious problem, but whenever you get enough food, try to get out of your geographical domain and present time period, and learn something about history and geography. It helps.

It is very easy to waste tons of money and manpower to build these monsters (and some of them are useful and necessary), but they don’t prove anything. Egyptian pharaohs also ran quite impressive projects, does it mean we should reinstate monarchy and slavery?

Your examples only bring back my memories of the old totalitarian slogans that supported all these projects. It was always about the greatness of the Socialist system and our obligation to sacrifice for it. Never about individual freedom and some real numbers about these sacrifices (or about projects themselves, for that matter). Socialists really like to boast about these “great achievements”. The individual is nothing, the collectivist socialist grandeur is everything. It proves, “The God is great”. And, of course, their god is government and Barack Hussein is his prophet.

– bankrupt.
– bankrupt.
–bankrupt.
– bankrupt.

The socialism is bankrupt, long live the socialism!

круто. :cool:

[audrey_girl]

Re: Just another tricky day in America

This is precisely what socialism is. First, left wing nuts create massive gov't machine and then they get really surprised it is abused by both sides. Just like Obama supporters are now pissed off because of his Wall Street support. When are you gonna get it? The real opposition to the left-wing socialism is not right-wing socialism. Whatever side abuses the gov't machine it is still based on socialist ideas, they just have different supporting constituencies and different rhetoric. None of the recent economic disasters could happen without massive gov't intervention.

The real opposition to socialism is the good old American idea of the limited government.



First, you need to understand it, if you don't want to live through it.

I already did, you can consider me a man from your future.

-> been here for couple of years, and these have to be the scariest words that I have read here

[audrey_girl]

Re: Just another tricky day in America

These are great examples. They will allow me to show you, why you are dead wrong.

Let us leave the closed-minded socialist mindset of a North American intellectual and try to compare the achievements mentioned above to the equivalent achievements of the great socialist gov’t of the former USSR:

Turning poor agrarian country into industrial superpower, providing free education for everybody, building canal Volga-Don, Belomorkanal, Dnieper Hydroelectric Station, Krasnoyarsk Dam : http://www.sibtourguide.com/dam.html (keep in mind, Colorado river is just a little creek compared to Enisey), Baikal Amur mainline, Trans Siberian railroad, the first Earth-orbiting artificial satellite, the first man in space, the Virgin Lands Campaign etc. etc. You get the idea, although I am sure you know next to nothing about most of these projects.

Using your logic they would make the people of USSR very happy. Now ask yourself, are they? I am sure starving is a serious problem, but whenever you get enough food, try to get out of your geographical domain and present time period, and learn something about history and geography. It helps.

It is very easy to waste tons of money and manpower to build these monsters (and some of them are useful and necessary), but they don’t prove anything. Egyptian pharaohs also ran quite impressive projects, does it mean we should reinstate monarchy and slavery?

Your examples only bring back my memories of the old totalitarian slogans that supported all these projects. It was always about the greatness of the Socialist system and our obligation to sacrifice for it. Never about individual freedom and some real numbers about these sacrifices (or about projects themselves, for that matter). Socialists really like to boast about these “great achievements”. The individual is nothing, the collectivist socialist grandeur is everything. It proves, “The God is great”. And, of course, their god is government and Barack Hussein is his prophet.

– bankrupt.
– bankrupt.
–bankrupt.
– bankrupt.

The socialism is bankrupt, long live the socialism!

The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money.

[c1ue]

Re: Just another tricky day in America

Medved,

One point which Dr. Michael Hudson has stated is that the failure of socialism in the USSR was not so much a fundamental flaw with socialism per se as much as it was the smothering of the Soviet economy via the largest bureaucracy ever known.

As one doing business in Russia, I can attest to the myriad and often conflicting regulations as opposed to similar businesses in America - though the differences are shrinking daily.

Can you comment on your experiences in this aspect?

As for ego-building monuments - I don't think any nation nor governmental system is immune. After all, for every Sputnik/monkey in space, there is a Moon landing followed by the dismantling of NASA's space program. This goes back all the way to the pyramids in Egypt, the Xi-An tomb of Shih Huang Ti, and for that matter Bronze Age burials with perfectly useful equipment.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Just another tricky day in America

These are great examples. They will allow me to show you, why you are dead wrong.

Let us leave the closed-minded socialist mindset of a North American intellectual and try to compare the achievements mentioned above to the equivalent achievements of the great socialist gov’t of the former USSR:

Turning poor agrarian country into industrial superpower, providing free education for everybody, building canal Volga-Don, Belomorkanal, Dnieper Hydroelectric Station, Krasnoyarsk Dam : http://www.sibtourguide.com/dam.html (keep in mind, Colorado river is just a little creek compared to Enisey), Baikal Amur mainline, Trans Siberian railroad, the first Earth-orbiting artificial satellite, the first man in space, the Virgin Lands Campaign etc. etc. You get the idea, although I am sure you know next to nothing about most of these projects.

Using your logic they would make the people of USSR very happy. Now ask yourself, are they? I am sure starving is a serious problem, but whenever you get enough food, try to get out of your geographical domain and present time period, and learn something about history and geography. It helps.

It is very easy to waste tons of money and manpower to build these monsters (and some of them are useful and necessary), but they don’t prove anything. Egyptian pharaohs also ran quite impressive projects, does it mean we should reinstate monarchy and slavery?

Your examples only bring back my memories of the old totalitarian slogans that supported all these projects. It was always about the greatness of the Socialist system and our obligation to sacrifice for it. Never about individual freedom and some real numbers about these sacrifices (or about projects themselves, for that matter). Socialists really like to boast about these “great achievements”. The individual is nothing, the collectivist socialist grandeur is everything. It proves, “The God is great”. And, of course, their god is government and Barack Hussein is his prophet.

– bankrupt.
– bankrupt.
–bankrupt.
– bankrupt.

The socialism is bankrupt, long live the socialism!

When you cut the taxes off to govn't, naturally the govn't programmes funded by govn't go bankrupt. What did you rightwingers expect?

Here in California, the extreme rightwing organized a tax revolt in 1978 to cut property taxes by 57% thru Proposition 13. The Howard Jarvis Foundation, Ronald Reagan, Arthur Laffer, and the Republican Party sponsored the Proposition. They wanted not only to enrich themselves and create a real estate bonanza, but maybe to bankrupt the State as well.

Now in 2009 California is bankrupt and issuing warrants to pay its bills. This is the legacy of Proposition 13 and the tax revolt.

So does that mean that democratic-socialism in California is a failure because such socialism depended upon State of California revenues and California is now bankrupt? That is the rightwing logic.

So, I have an idea: Since socialism is a failure in California (an elsewhere ) as you argue, then why not cut-off the electric power to the California Water Project. After all, why should the bankrupt State pay for pumping a river of water (in an aqueduct) from Shasta Dam down 600 miles to southern California and then pump that water up 4000 feet over the Tejachipi Range and then down into southern California?

To follow your argument, since socialism is a failure, why not let the people of southern California buy bottled water for all of their needs? Let the free market sort the water problem out.

How about closing the University of California and all of its branches and let higher education be done by bible colleges?

When you cut State revenues by 57% thru Proposition 13 in 1978 and never bother to replace that revenue, this is where California is headed.

Maybe you would want Shasta Dam and Hoover Dam privatized too? And sell-off the Feather River Project too? And sell Hoover Dam off to the private sector too?

And you want Medicare in the U.S. and Social Security sold to the private insurance companies because both are bankrupt?

You rightwingers can not have it both ways, or can you? It sounds like you may want the benefits from democratic-socialism, but you don't want to pay for those benefits through taxes. Or maybe you would want just some of the benefits that democratic-socialism has rendered, but not all, just the benefits to your taste---- sort of like picking the toppings on a pizza? But whatever, you don't want to pay for those benefits thru taxation.

[medved]

Re: Just another tricky day in America

Medved,

One point which Dr. Michael Hudson has stated is that the failure of socialism in the USSR was not so much a fundamental flaw with socialism per se as much as it was the smothering of the Soviet economy via the largest bureaucracy ever known. .

Socialism and bureaucracy are joined at the hip. There is no way you can give the gov’t control of the economy without creating a huge bureaucracy. You can easily see it when you deal with relatively big companies here in the US. The bigger the company, the more bureaucracy it has, the more important it is to comply with procedures, policies, manager’s opinion etc. At certain point people learn that compliance is more important than work.

Of course, the whole economy cannot consist of only small companies, one size does not fit all. Sometimes you do need big companies or even (o horrors!) the companies run or tightly controlled by the gov’t. However, when socialism takes over, no business failures will be accepted. Everybody has “economic rights”, and they have to be sustained at any cost. The cost is efficiency, so there are much more takers and less stuff. This is a huge moral hazard and, eventually, all of the companies will be controlled by the gov’t and the system will be totally perverted, just what you saw in Russia.

There is a good example of this creeping perversion here in America: our beloved Fed. It was originally created as purely financial institution to provide stability of the system and the currency. But, by the mid-20th century it became all things for all dogooders – it was supposed to provide low inflation and low unemployment and stimulate the economy etc., etc. Obviously, when any institution gets this kind of power, it will be abused by whatever crooks are closer to it. The question is, why give it so much power. But this is the last question socialists will ask.

As one doing business in Russia, I can attest to the myriad and often conflicting regulations as opposed to similar businesses in America - though the differences are shrinking daily.

Can you comment on your experiences in this aspect?

You are observing temporary improvement caused by the new blood in the government. The current leadership, whether you like it or not is much more intelligent and flexible, than the old senile Party apparatchicks. Similar things happened in Russia in the past. Reforms of Peter the 1st are a great example. He did not care about titles, nobility, wealth etc. He cared about modernizing Russia. So, he promoted anybody who could provide great leadership, be it a peddler (Menshikov), African slave (Gannibal) or a Jew (Shafirov). However, any centralized system eventually gets concerned with only one thing, namely, self-preservation. The same will happen in Russia. Initial push to streamline things will weaken and everything will be swamped by bureaucracy and corruption. It will take some time, but it will happen.

[c1ue]

Re: Just another tricky day in America

Socialism and bureaucracy are joined at the hip.

I think this is a belief, not necessarily a truth.

According to this book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=G6j...age&q=&f=false

Total government employees by nation vs. work force (?):

France/Finland: 27%
Denmark: 39%
Sweden: 38%
United States: 22%
(US numbers including state, local, municipal, etc)

At least part of this discrepancy can be explained by the lack of nationalized health care.

Another portion can be explained from the US data being from 1996 - I think we can all safely agree that the US government has grown disproportionately since then if only due to DHS.

It would not surprise me in the least if the US now exceeds France.

You are observing temporary improvement caused by the new blood in the government.

I think you are correct, but in the wrong direction. What I'm seeing is some slight improvement in Russia, but in reality a major negative improvement in the US.

[Raz]

Re: Just another tricky day in America

When you cut the taxes off to govn't, naturally the govn't programmes funded by govn't go bankrupt. What did you rightwingers expect?

Here in California, the extreme rightwing organized a tax revolt in 1978 to cut property taxes by 57% thru Proposition 13. The Howard Jarvis Foundation, Ronald Reagan, Arthur Laffer, and the Republican Party sponsored the Proposition. They wanted not only to enrich themselves and create a real estate bonanza, but maybe to bankrupt the State as well.

Now in 2009 California is bankrupt and issuing warrants to pay its bills. This is the legacy of Proposition 13 and the tax revolt.

So does that mean that democratic-socialism in California is a failure because such socialism depended upon State of California revenues and California is now bankrupt? That is the rightwing logic.

So, I have an idea: Since socialism is a failure in California (an elsewhere ) as you argue, then why not cut-off the electric power to the California Water Project. After all, why should the bankrupt State pay for pumping a river of water (in an aqueduct) from Shasta Dam down 600 miles to southern California and then pump that water up 4000 feet over the Tejachipi Range and then down into southern California?

To follow your argument, since socialism is a failure, why not let the people of southern California buy bottled water for all of their needs? Let the free market sort the water problem out.

How about closing the University of California and all of its branches and let higher education be done by bible colleges?

When you cut State revenues by 57% thru Proposition 13 in 1978 and never bother to replace that revenue, this is where California is headed.

Maybe you would want Shasta Dam and Hoover Dam privatized too? And sell-off the Feather River Project too? And sell Hoover Dam off to the private sector too?

And you want Medicare in the U.S. and Social Security sold to the private insurance companies because both are bankrupt?

You rightwingers can not have it both ways, or can you? It sounds like you may want the benefits from democratic-socialism, but you don't want to pay for those benefits through taxes. Or maybe you would want just some of the benefits that democratic-socialism has rendered, but not all, just the benefits to your taste---- sort of like picking the toppings on a pizza? But whatever, you don't want to pay for those benefits thru taxation.

There are two sides to an Income Statement, Steve. You're only focusing on the Credit entries.
The Debit side isn't hard to understand: it's as simple as dirt and as old as time.

If you have a wide, long hallway with two doors at the end, and you put a sign on the door to the left that says "Free Lunch!", while on the door to the right you place a sign that reads "Lunch - $4.00", the line forming to the left will grow longer and longer and longer until there's no more food to be given away, unless you take the food from the people who bought theirs at the door on the right.

"Right-wingers" never wanted all the socialist garbage that the Left established during another period when they had huge majorities in the Congress (the 1960s with Mike Mansfield and John McCormick) and until that time, the biggest spender in American history in the White House - "Daddy Bird" Johnson. (Obama is now breaking that record by a trillion miles.)

And it wasn't "right-wingers" who continuously expanded all these programs and dreamed up new ones over the following 40 years, until the rise of the NeoCons (the old-line big-government "conservatives" who entered the Republican Party back in the 1970s and 80s as they fled the McGovernites, the "Boat People" of the Democratic Party), and their NeoCon Shining Star: George W. Dumbass.

There will never be enough money to pay for all that the Left demands as their "right" for simply being born in the United States.

[flintlock]

Re: Just another tricky day in America

Back on topic, more news from Alabama

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090804/...ounty_crisis_1

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. – The sheriff in Alabama's most populous county may call for the National Guard to help maintain order, a spokesman said Tuesday, after a judge cleared the way for cuts in the sheriff's budget and hopes dimmed for a quick end to a budget crisis.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Just another tricky day in America

As a socialist, I would still agree with you that spending can not go on forever, and there has to be limits. So on that key issue, I would agree with you, Raz.

But we need certain things in America like Medicare for everyone, regardless of age or pre-existing condition. We also need Social Security and FDIC ( Federal Deposit Insurance ) for savers. We also need the best possible public education.

For what we definitely need, we all should be willing to pay higher taxes because there is no free lunch in this world.

I remember living a few years in Saskatchewan. Socialized medicine and public education were paid for by the Saskatchewan E&H (education and health) sales tax of 5%. And everyone was glad to pay that tax ( and higher provincial income taxes too) for what they received from govn't in benefits.

Needless to say, with all these taxes Saskatchewan did run budget surpluses each year that I lived there. Those budget surpluses guaranteed a good future for the kids.

The Obama bunch needs to be frank and honest with the country about the need for higher taxes. Obviously, the Democrats don't want to talk about higher taxes because that would give the Repukes another talking point in the next election.