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**Mashuri** · July 23, 2009, 08:04 PM

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

This entire argument is nullified by one tiny little detail:

The U.S. health care system is not free market. In fact, it is very, very far from it -- no matter what CNN tells you.

**Ghent12** · July 23, 2009, 08:10 PM

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

Good luck with your cancer treatment in Canada. I find it interesting that you add in school performance as well.

Overall, I believe your argument is a combination of a strawman fallacy, an appeal to ignorance fallacy, and an appeal to fear fallacy, among other fallacies. You remain utterly unconvincing.

I would recommend using an approach that acknowledges at least some portion of the opposite side you present as valid or present. That is so only if you wish to actually attempt to convince people and not propagate talking points.

**sishya** · July 23, 2009, 08:25 PM

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

This is an economic forum, not Daily Kos.

**Raz** · July 23, 2009, 08:30 PM

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

Originally posted by MulaMan View Post

I'd like to know where so many folks get this idea from?

If you base your arguments on such false assumptions then our health insurance / care system will never get reformed.

Blows my mind that Americans think they have great health care!

America is way down the list by any measure and if you measure it in terms of overall "population health" as I do - USA is practically a developing nation.

In terms of the human development index, the United States has fallen from second place in 1990 (behind Canada) to 12th place. This decline continued through both the Clinton and Bush administrations, with the US falling to sixth in 1995, ninth in 2000, and 12th in 2005.

In certain respects, the decline is even worse. The US is 34th in infant mortality�with a level comparable to Croatia, Estonia, Poland and Cuba. US school children perform significantly below their counterparts in countries like Canada, France, Germany and Japan, and 14 percent of the population, some 40 million people, lack basic literacy and number skills.

Of the world�s 30 richest nations, which comprise the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), the United States has the highest proportion of children living in poverty, 15 percent, and the most people in prison, both in absolute numbers and as a percentage of the whole population. With five percent of the world�s population, the US has 24 percent of the world�s prisoners.

The report notes: �Social mobility is now less fluid in the United States than in other affluent nations. Indeed, a poor child born in Germany, France, Canada or one of the Nordic countries has a better chance to join the middle class in adulthood than an American child born into similar circumstances.�

In overall life expectancy, the United States ranks an astonishing 42nd, behind not only Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and all the countries of Western Europe, but also Israel, Greece, Singapore, Costa Rica and South Korea. The US spends twice as much money per capita on health care as any of these countries, but its citizens live shorter lives.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/jul200�

The reason is pretty obvious for any non free market fundementalist. In a lot of area's and certainly healthcare the for profit motive does not lead to the best results. When it benefits the whole society it's nothing but pure logic to organize products and or services together. Socialism is not about "big government", it's about people working together and understanding people should not serve the system but the system should serve us.

Free market fundementalism stands in the way of reforms to change the American health system that is not unsucsesful in the logic of how it's set up. The goal is to make money and a lot of money is indeed being made. Most people would agree that should not be the goal of a good healthcare system but still shy away from drawing the logical conclusions or are easily persuaded by right wing demagogy about socialism.

Going into an American hospital is as scary as hell, if feels like your are going into a meat processing plant with lawyers hovering over you at every corner, doctors taking 30 seconds a day to visit, bankruptcy waiting down every hall, paperwork about to get lost at every turn, a new shift of overworked nurses 3 times a day, nurse's assitants many of which do not speak english ...

I highly recommend to ANYONE that has a family member enter a USA hospital overnight to NEVER, EVER leave them alone in there and question EVERYTHING TWICE, THREE TIMES, FOUR TIMES, ...

Living close to the border, I travel up to Canada for dental care (I pay cash) because the general care quality is SOOOOOO MUCH BETTER than in America.

MulaMan, you have bounced from "population health" to "human development index" to "percentage of children in poverty" to "social mobility", all the while denigrating the United States in every category and finding the blame for all of the various problems in "free market fundamentalism", whatever that is. And you named the thread for America's health care? As in medical treatment and the cost thereof?

My wife had a double mascectomy Monday morning at a hospital ten miles from our home in a not-so-large southern town. The care she received was excellent, the surgeons were as skilled as any on this planet, the facility was clean and professionally staffed, and the only living creatures in fear were germs.

I would suggest moving this thread to Rant-n-Rave because it sure as hell ain't "news".

If that doesn't work try posting it on the Daily Kos.

**MulaMan** · July 23, 2009, 08:40 PM

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

Originally posted by Mashuri View Post

This entire argument is nullified by one tiny little detail:.

What argument are you talking about?

I challenge anyone to post some valid data showing that America has great health care?

My argument is that most of you seem completely brain washed into thinking America has great health care!

America has horrible health care by most measures except perhaps by profits made in the insurance and pharma industry.

A double mastectomy is a sign of good health care? are you crazy or just insane?

**MulaMan** · July 23, 2009, 09:03 PM

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

I'm asking a serious question: please post some data to back up why you think America has great health care?

All evidence seems to point otherwise. Please do not pull out any of the climate change attack the messenger, grammer mistakes, attack the structure of the argument - type responses.

WHO world health care rankings: America #37 right before Slovenia.
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Life expenctancy: America #24
http://www.photius.com/rankings/heal...fe_table2.html

Infant Mortality: America right after communist Cuba.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2091rank.html

Most wasteful health care system in the world - America. http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

Health care ROI: America spends the most and gets little return.

http://www.patientpowernow.org/2008/...e-ranking-who/

American Health Care "the best" or "most expensive"

http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

There is SOOOO MUCH DATA proving my point, I'd like someone to find some data to counter the point or explanation?

Is it because many of you equate "expensive" with "quality" ? - you pay more so it must be good? American surgeons make a fortune so they must be better than a Cuban surgeon that makes a communist salary?

Is it because you equate extreme surgical interventions (as if it where a drive through) with quality health care? I would bet that America leds the world in number of surgeries - surgery is big money. We probably do have the "best" surgeons - kind of like the "best" hedge fund managers.

or is it some kind of "America is great" patriotic thing? - my parents used to tell me how the communist Russians used to think they where the "greatest nation on earth" while in fact the U.S.S.R was falling apart by every social measure - health, economic, education, ...

**MulaMan** · July 23, 2009, 10:10 PM

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

Wow, amazing how political affiliation in America impacts a person's views on health care. Seems like a more significant factor than actual facts?

Nearly seven-in-ten Republicans (68%) believe the U.S. health care system is the best in the world, compared to just three in ten (32%) Democrats and four in ten (40%) Independents who feel the same way.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/pre...re-system.html

**Munger** · July 23, 2009, 10:20 PM

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

American health care is twice as expensive as any other developed country and delivers terrible results on average. If you are rich, however, then it's the place to be.

The Economist magazine had an interesting article recently. It is by no means a liberal publication. It stated:

- If the U.S. was starting from scratch, single payer would, without question, be the way to do it. Country after country have shown the effectiveness of containing costs and providing effective care to everyone.

- Since this can't happen politically, three main things should be tackled:

(1) Eliminate the tax subsidy for employer sponsored health care. This screws those who can't get insurance through their job and inflates costs;
(2) Eliminate pay per treatment for doctors. It's like paying an plumber for how many pipes he checks/fixes. The incentives line up to endlessly increase costs. Other countries have salaried health care professionals with incentives based on effectiveness; and
(3) Break up the health insurance monopolies or create competition through a govt. option.

Makes complete sense. From a non-political source (I'd argue fairly conservative).

**sunskyfan** · July 23, 2009, 10:32 PM

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

I am a healthy 46 year-old man (no pre-existing conditions) that today got declined for health insurance from a major carrier in my city. Don't tell me there is no problem. I guess being a 46 year-old man is a pre-existing condition if you are self- employed.

We have compared world views before and I respect you. I am truly glad your wife received excellent care. My brother, a doctor, provides excellent care. That is not the question. The question is what our collective responsibility is to each other when it comes to health care, what our priorities are, and how these two things are represented in our economic system.

**Starving Steve** · July 23, 2009, 10:36 PM

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

The brainwashing of Americans begins in their public school system. The result is that very few Americans can reason or think critically about anything, including the issues of the day--- including the issue of national health insurance.

Having been a teacher for 14 years in the American public schools, I know first-hand that the so-called "basic skills" taught in the U.S. public school curriculum are archaic, more appropriate to the needs of the 19th C. but not needs of the 21st C.

Witness now, the resistence to change, any change at all, that continues in the South, literally as a way of life. Witness the "birther movement" in recent days in America--- a movement which suggests that President Obama is an illegal alien squating in the White House.

In Delaware of late, the birther movement gathered to pledge allegiance to the United States of America, something they learned to do from day-one in the American public schools. Their pledge of allegiance drowned-out someone speaking at a podium when birthers gathered to protest the speaker.

Several Republicans, including Lou Dobbs on CNN and several Repukes in the Congress, also Rush Limbaugh have joined the birther movement..... The racist and xenophobic overtones are obvious.

Witness now, the American for-profit private healthcare system: a system that is among the worst in the world in terms of mortality, life span, law suits, costs, the 50 million in America now denied care, needless tests, defensive medicine, etc. And the Republican Party wants to keep it, more or less the way it is.

No surprise, much of the opposition against Obama's healthcare initiative is coming from Republicans in the South and the lower Midwest, also Republican, Orin Hatch in Utah. No surprise, the Republican Party has not repudiated the birther movement. And no surprise that the birther movement is growing in the South and the lower Midwest.

The connexion between the American public school curriculum, the Republican Party, rightwing politics, the birther movement, xenophobia, opposition to Obama's healthcare initiative, opposition to Obama, and opposition to change in general is interesting. And the geography of this politics within America is interesting too.

**touchring** · July 23, 2009, 10:46 PM

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

Originally posted by MulaMan View Post

Life expenctancy: America #24
http://www.photius.com/rankings/heal...fe_table2.html

This is based on 1997/1999 data.

2008 statistics can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy

**Raz** · July 23, 2009, 10:59 PM

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

Originally posted by sunskyfan View Post

I am a healthy 46 year-old man (no pre-existing conditions) that today got declined for health insurance from a major carrier in my city. Don't tell me there is no problem. I guess being a 46 year-old man is a pre-existing condition if you are self- employed.

We have compared world views before and I respect you. I am truly glad your wife received excellent care. My brother, a doctor, provides excellent care. That is not the question. The question is what our collective responsibility is to each other when it comes to health care, what our priorities are, and how these two things are represented in our economic system.

Sunskyfan, I don't disagree with anything you just wrote. Nor would I say that we don't have a problem with our healthcare system in the United States - most countries do, it just tends to center in different areas.

I wasn't attempting to offer anything but a critique of the rambling tirade launched by MulaMan. And a suggestion that if he only wants to foam against the quality of life in the United States he should move it to Rant-n-Rave.

**Raz** · July 23, 2009, 11:04 PM

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

Originally posted by Starving Steve View Post

The brainwashing of Americans begins in their public school system. The result is that very few Americans can reason or think critically about anything, including the issues of the day--- including the issue of national health insurance.

Having been a teacher for 14 years in the American public schools, I know first-hand that the so-called "basic skills" taught in the U.S. public school curriculum are archaic, more appropriate to the needs of the 19th C. but not needs of the 21st C.

Witness now, the resistence to change, any change at all, that continues in the South, literally as a way of life. Witness the "birther movement" in recent days in America--- a movement which suggests that President Obama is an illegal alien squating in the White House.

In Delaware of late, the birther movement gathered to pledge allegiance to the United States of America, something they learned to do from day-one in the American public schools. Their pledge of allegiance drowned-out someone speaking at a podium when birthers gathered to protest the speaker.

Several Republicans, including Lou Dobbs on CNN and several Repukes in the Congress, also Rush Limbaugh have joined the birther movement..... The racist and xenophobic overtones are obvious.

Witness now, the American for-profit private healthcare system: a system that is among the worst in the world in terms of mortality, life span, law suits, costs, the 50 million in America now denied care, needless tests, defensive medicine, etc. And the Republican Party wants to keep it, more or less the way it is.

No surprise, much of the opposition against Obama's healthcare initiative is coming from Republicans in the South and the lower Midwest, also Republican, Orin Hatch in Utah. No surprise, the Republican Party has not repudiated the birther movement. And no surprise that the birther movement is growing in the South and the lower Midwest.

The connexion between the American public school curriculum, the Republican Party, rightwing politics, the birther movement, xenophobia, opposition to Obama's healthcare initiative, opposition to Obama, and opposition to change in general is interesting. And the geography of this politics within America is interesting too.

I find you interesting too, Steve. But not interesting enough to respond to your pointed insults and your revisionist view of the world.

I don't like SantaFe2 at all, but as he once said, you are coming across like a bad cartoon.

**Raz** · July 23, 2009, 11:20 PM

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

Originally posted by Munger View Post

American health care is twice as expensive as any other developed country and delivers terrible results on average. If you are rich, however, then it's the place to be.

The Economist magazine had an interesting article recently. It is by no means a liberal publication. It stated:

- If the U.S. was starting from scratch, single payer would, without question, be the way to do it. Country after country have shown the effectiveness of containing costs and providing effective care to everyone.

- Since this can't happen politically, three main things should be tackled:

(1) Eliminate the tax subsidy for employer sponsored health care. This screws those who can't get insurance through their job and inflates costs;
(2) Eliminate pay per treatment for doctors. It's like paying an plumber for how many pipes he checks/fixes. The incentives line up to endlessly increase costs. Other countries have salaried health care professionals with incentives based on effectiveness; and
(3) Break up the health insurance monopolies or create competition through a govt. option.

Makes complete sense. From a non-political source (I'd argue fairly conservative).

First of all, A Russian graduate student who my wife and I have been host parents for since he was an undergraduate freshman gave me a year's subscription to The Economist, and it is hardly a conservative publication.

With that out of the way we'll proceed to your points. (1) is a tax matter, like mortgage interest deduction. Why not do away with almost all of them and go to a flat tax? (2) an interesting idea, but who is going to hire them? The government? Run it like the postal service? Would you deny them the right to operate a private clinic on the basis of their profession?
(3) and who are the insurance companies that can compete with the "government option"? Don't misunderstand me, I don't like insurance companies, and in 1990 hired a lawyer at my personal expense to keep one of them from raping the terminally ill father of a friend's wife. But this health care bill has to make sense, and rushing it through the Congress before the August recess makes no sense to me.

I'm not an idealogue as long as we don't end up with 16% of the national economy in a federal agency.
I respect your opinion and will be happy to entertain any elaboration of your points.

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