Does America have the world's best health care?

[Ghent12]

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

The brainwashing of Americans begins in their public school system. The result is that very few Americans can reason or think critically about anything, including the issues of the day--- including the issue of national health insurance.

Having been a teacher for 14 years in the American public schools, I know first-hand that the so-called "basic skills" taught in the U.S. public school curriculum are archaic, more appropriate to the needs of the 19th C. but not needs of the 21st C.

Witness now, the resistence to change, any change at all, that continues in the South, literally as a way of life. Witness the "birther movement" in recent days in America--- a movement which suggests that President Obama is an illegal alien squating in the White House.

In Delaware of late, the birther movement gathered to pledge allegiance to the United States of America, something they learned to do from day-one in the American public schools. Their pledge of allegiance drowned-out someone speaking at a podium when birthers gathered to protest the speaker.

Several Republicans, including Lou Dobbs on CNN and several Repukes in the Congress, also Rush Limbaugh have joined the birther movement..... The racist and xenophobic overtones are obvious.

Witness now, the American for-profit private healthcare system: a system that is among the worst in the world in terms of mortality, life span, law suits, costs, the 50 million in America now denied care, needless tests, defensive medicine, etc. And the Republican Party wants to keep it, more or less the way it is.

No surprise, much of the opposition against Obama's healthcare initiative is coming from Republicans in the South and the lower Midwest, also Republican, Orin Hatch in Utah. No surprise, the Republican Party has not repudiated the birther movement. And no surprise that the birther movement is growing in the South and the lower Midwest.

The connexion between the American public school curriculum, the Republican Party, rightwing politics, the birther movement, xenophobia, opposition to Obama's healthcare initiative, opposition to Obama, and opposition to change in general is interesting. And the geography of this politics within America is interesting too.

When I created my iTulip account I remember being worried about participating in discussions because I knew so very little about economics at the time. Having witnessed your lack of concern for intellectual heft, I believe that iTulip does not have any enforcement of its stated goal of fostering a thoughtful community.

However, as a person interested in the issue and in keeping iTulip a cut above the rampant junk on the Internet, I urge you to use logic when presenting your contentions. I would recommend Munger's style to you, as even though I disagree with him and his points generally, it is obvious that he is thinking about the issue when he posts and not too preoccupied with utter nonsense. Another tip, and this especially applies to MulaMan, would be to avoid pathological overstatements.


Munger, I believe your first point is indeed a step in the right direction. However, your second and third points are politically untenable or generally bad news. The second one means a virtual commandeering of care, while the latter part of the third point is essentially what's being worked on in legislation now. However, that piece of legislation is certainly flawed in many ways, among them being that it does not foster "competition" any more than placing a fox in a hen house fosters "competition" for food.

Now simultaneously breaking up insurance monopolies while eliminating their subsidies, as per your first point, would indeed go a long ways towards slowing and reversing the cost creep.

I think a perfectly appropriate analogy would be the cosmetic surgery and LASIK industry. The "unnecessary" health care that is generally not covered by insurance, not subsidized by insurance or through other ways, and the cost goes down over time due to the increased supply meeting or exceeding the demand.

[blazespinnaker]

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

The US has the best premium health care.

Also, the US system subsidizes drug development costs for the rest of the world. Kinda stupid, but there ya go.

Canada and other countries are leaching off of drug development in the US. But they do have superior average healthcare.

You pretty much have to pay for an MRI in Canada, though, unless you can wait it out.

BTW, health care is a very relevant topic because the fundamental economics of the developed world rely on it.

[blazespinnaker]

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

What's with the attacks on Starving Steve?

This 'birther' movement is obviously getting way out of hand.

If Obama's ratings fall too low and unemployment gets much worse - this could easily foment insurrection.

Personally, I think this is a far greater risk than 'hyperinflation'.

[Munger]

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

With that out of the way we'll proceed to your points. (1) is a tax matter, like mortgage interest deduction. Why not do away with almost all of them and go to a flat tax?

Mostly agree. So long as it's progressive. Though there is some benefit to taxing things that are detrimental to the country, such as smoking. Though I realize this is a slippery slope...

(2) an interesting idea, but who is going to hire them? The government? Run it like the postal service? Would you deny them the right to operate a private clinic on the basis of their profession?

We have no problem in disallowing people to legally represent someone when there is a conflict of interest. Similarly, we ban insider trading. I consider this a conflict of interest; it should be ethically unacceptable. It doesn't seem like the health industry is going to self-impose this though, so we'd need to find other routes.

(3) and who are the insurance companies that can compete with the "government option"? Don't misunderstand me, I don't like insurance companies, and in 1990 hired a lawyer at my personal expense to keep one of them from raping the terminally ill father of a friend's wife. But this health care bill has to make sense, and rushing it through the Congress before the August recess makes no sense to me.

True. I see the other side though - health reform is dead in the water if it doesn't happen by then. Mostly because I think there will be another dip in the market and the public will freak out. But even if that doesn't happen, presidents universally lose political capital as their term wanes on. I think figuring out how to cut health care costs is extremely important considering the expense is growing at an absurd rate and our population is rapidly aging. Probably the most effective way is to fix the perverse incentive structure. But the health insurance industry is a total racket as well - regional monopolies who take profit from the healthy and try to figure out ways to not pay the sick. The current plan is certainly not my ideal - but better than nothing, which is what the GOP wants. I personally like single payer with optional additional private insurance followed by the Wyden-Bennett plan.

[*T*]

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

To get travel insurance covering health in the UK, there are two types of policy. One covering the US + rest of the world, one covering the rest of the world. Guess which is substantially more expensive.

[Raz]

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

What's with the attacks on Starving Steve?

This 'birther' movement is obviously getting way out of hand.

If Obama's ratings fall too low and unemployment gets much worse - this could easily foment insurrection.

Personally, I think this is a far greater risk than 'hyperinflation'.

Suppose I rant on and on and on and on and on and on and on about scum-sucking, baby-killing, porn-peddling leftist trash in the blue cities and do so pointedly because I know that you live there. Would you get tired of it?

I don't believe Limbaugh is a racist. He has too many close friends who are black. And I'm tired of the fiegned "moral superiority" of the vocal left, especially those who have no problem with infanticide. That includes the President.

As far as the "birther movement" - why doesn't the White House produce Mr. Obama's birth certificate and blow them out of the water? The Obama campaign (still operating even though they clearly won the election) last Fall said that there was a question as to McCain's citizenship because he was born in the Canal Zone where his military parents were stationed !!!
Now that is a crock if I ever heard one.

Face it: an idiot like Bush with an unpopular war and the beginnings of a Depression could only bring 53% of the vote to the Democrats. Why?
Because moderate voters know that the Loonie Left is the idealogical core of the Democratic Party, and as EJ said, they have the economic management skills of celery.

Reagan threw Carter out of office with 60% of the vote and carried 48 states, and we weren't at war.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

Suppose I rant on and on and on and on and on and on and on about scum-sucking, baby-killing, porn-peddling leftist trash in the blue cities and do so pointedly because I know that you live there. Would you get tired of it?

I don't believe Limbaugh is a racist. He has too many close friends who are black. And I'm tired of the fiegned "moral superiority" of the vocal left, especially those who have no problem with infanticide. That includes the President.

As far as the "birther movement" - why doesn't the White House produce Mr. Obama's birth certificate and blow them out of the water? The Obama campaign (still operating even though they clearly won the election) last Fall said that there was a question as to McCain's citizenship because he was born in the Canal Zone where his military parents were stationed !!!
Now that is a crock if I ever heard one.

Face it: an idiot like Bush with an unpopular war and the beginnings of a Depression could only bring 53% of the vote to the Democrats. Why?
Because moderate voters know that the Loonie Left is the idealogical core of the Democratic Party, and as EJ said, they have the economic management skills of celery.

Reagan threw Carter out of office with 60% of the vote and carried 48 states, and we weren't at war.

As for the birth certificate of President Obama, here it is:

#151-1961-010641 Barack Hussein Obama II, born Aug 4, 1961 7:24PM at Honolulu, Hawaii, County of Oahu, to father, Barack Hussein Obama and mother, Stanley Ann Dunham

To see the birth certificate, click this link:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/wash...ama-birth.html

Once you are at the link and see the certificate of birth, just move your mouse onto the certificate and make full-size copies of it with your printer. You might hand those copies out at the next meeting of the Republican Party in your neck of the woods.

And the question: Why doesn't your Republican Party repudiate the growing "birther movement" in America? The much more tolerant and moderate Republican Party of Dwight David Eisenhower would have repudiated that bunch of nuts in the birther movement long ago.

[Ghent12]

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

A much better link for evidence in support of the existence of his birth certificate would be:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...n_the_usa.html

Now, as to the claims that he does not have one, that's all they really are. They are possibilities, scenarios, or claims, and all of them without evidence. Since logically the absence of proof is not proof of absence, this "birther" reaction is purely an emotional sidetrack.

I think that President Obama's election campaign is actually very smart to not make any effort to dig up or release the original birth certificate. If, in the extremely unlikely event he were required to produce it for legal reasons, he simply would. However, by not releasing it and leaving it at the certified copy seen around the Internet, he is making the smart political play. The ants are swarming over it, even though it's political poison and a general waste of time.

Just imagine what the "birthers" would be focusing on if not for the birth certificate. They might concentrate on important issues, like the vile legislation being pushed through Congress, the Federal Reserve and all its wonderment, etc.

I just hate it when people I generally support get distracted by nonissues, and that's exactly what this is.

[MulaMan]

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

The US has the best premium health care.

Also, the US system subsidizes drug development costs for the rest of the world. Kinda stupid, but there ya go.

Canada and other countries are leaching off of drug development in the US. But they do have superior average healthcare.
.

Still not seen any facts that point to America having "the best premium health care"

I believe that American drugs companies are the leaches, they leach off world-wide research and then use the American system to protect and enrich themselves.

"American pharmaceutical researchers have discovered fewer new major drugs than one would expect based on their size and proportion of the world market."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n13720006/

[MulaMan]

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

Also still not understanding why so many people think "America has great health care" ?

America probably has the "best" surgeons and the "best" hedge fund managers and the "best" lawyers.

Once you are the gurney awaiting the triple by-pass and about to delivery 150K of revenue to the "best" surgeons...the health care system has already failed you.

Kind of like how "great financial care" involves staying as far away as possible from the "best" hedge fund managers and "best" lawyers.

[MulaMan]

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

Oh my God, just looked up "birther movement" ... why do I even try ... cruel world ... please mother nature we need H1N1 now ...

[nero3]

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

If you have the wallet, I am sure you can get better care in the US than in Norway, in terms of the latest technology, techniques, fresh organs from some unlucky man in Albania. But generally I think it is much better here, in terms of what if guaranteed from the government. As everything is free (except dental care after the age of 18). I don't think I know anyone here in Norway that have a private health insurance. It's simply not needed.

[lurker]

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

Also still not understanding why so many people think "America has great health care" ?.

One word: Parochialism.

American "conservatives", and I refer to those supporting the republican party in its current social-conservative, corporatist guise, are the most parochial group of people that exist in any developed nation (IMO). They steadfastly refuse to accept that anything could be done better by any other country, ever. Instead it's easier to wave the stars and stripes and wallow in ignorance (and accept the bribes from your sponsor industry if you're a politician).

I don't have much time for democratic politicians, but at least there's a sense of accepting that we don't have the best answers for everything here in the US among the democratic electorate.

I think the healthcare in the US can be fantastic for the rich, those who work for large employers with gold plated health plans, and for anyone poor or old enough to qualify for government healthcare.

For the rest of us (middle class and not old enough for the AARP) we are one serious illness (or accident) from bankruptcy.

[rjwjr]

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

Also still not understanding why so many people think "America has great health care" ?

America probably has the "best" surgeons and the "best" hedge fund managers and the "best" lawyers.

Once you are the gurney awaiting the triple by-pass and about to delivery 150K of revenue to the "best" surgeons...the health care system has already failed you.

Kind of like how "great financial care" involves staying as far away as possible from the "best" hedge fund managers and "best" lawyers.

If it weren't for the profit motive in the US, which results in a startling number of medical patents relative to the rest of the world (48% of all medical patents), the entire human race likely wouldn't have the wonderful level of health care that we all enjoy. You may not like our system, but you live for, and because of, our results. My concern is that changing our system will eliminate that motivation, resulting in reduced future drugs and life-extending innovations. Why risk that, especially since I have the impression that you are not relying on the US health system anyway.

http://www.crisisstates.com/download...en(table2).pdf

[Raz]

Re: Does America have the world's best health care?

As for the birth certificate of President Obama, here it is:

#151-1961-010641 Barack Hussein Obama II, born Aug 4, 1961 7:24PM at Honolulu, Hawaii, County of Oahu, to father, Barack Hussein Obama and mother, Stanley Ann Dunham

To see the birth certificate, click this link:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/wash...ama-birth.html

Once you are at the link and see the certificate of birth, just move your mouse onto the certificate and make full-size copies of it with your printer. You might hand those copies out at the next meeting of the Republican Party in your neck of the woods.

And the question: Why doesn't your Republican Party repudiate the growing "birther movement" in America? The much more tolerant and moderate Republican Party of Dwight David Eisenhower would have repudiated that bunch of nuts in the birther movement long ago.

I've told you at least two prior times that I'm not a Republican. But why let something like the truth ruin a good talking point, eh?

I saw this a long time ago, but nothing will convince some people.
Perhaps the long form showing the hospital and attending physician's signature would finally shut them up, but I doubt it.
They would probably claim it's a fake.

I once suggested a 900 page book by an English Socialist named Allan Bullock who spent sixteen years documenting the life of Josef Jughashvilli to a guy like this who claims that Americans have been brainwashed by a falsified history of Stalin's life and political rule.

But he's not open to fact and reason any more than some of the people he rants about.