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Dow tops 9000 as home sales rise

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  • #16
    Re: Dow tops 9000 as home sales rise

    It's all an impressive graph.


    However, I think you are coming on to my side, I can sort of feel it in my gut. Today, what was it, 28 % rise in supower? (SPWRA)

    It's possible the "green shots" or whatever to call it will begin slow, and maybe it will fizzle out, and you need another stimulus package for the economy to gain traction. However, you have guys like Soros, Faber, Rogers, all saying that the low in march will hold, even nobody believed me here when I was calling it at the time, here. So it is no suprise people think the housing market have much faller to fall.


    Itullip is using charts, using the real dow, that are faulty, cause they don't resonate with the Q value, or the Dow/ Gold ratio. That gives a false impression to how much the dow should fall. That is a chart that give a false impression, on the front page of the site.

    Since 2005 (in the seventies the similar time is 1972), you have had an inflationary housing bust, culuminating in a crash not that far from 1974, and now there are set to be more inflation, more like the mid to late seventies. Or WW2 era to 1950. I am not really sure how it will turn out, but I think a back-carpet of inflation, will make this a different experience than in the 1990-s.

    A option I have been thinking of lately is the WW2-1950 era, is that you can have money printing that will bring the long term interest rates from around 3,5 to around 6 % for the 10 year, etc, and then the stock market will expand to let's say 10-14000 once again. Then, you get a hike in interest rates, that will ensure a boom similar to the 1950-1965 era.




    One thing I have kept notice of.

    When the nasdaq bubble faded in 2000, housing really started a run that lasted 5 years. In 2005, what basically happened was that China started to adjust their exchange rate. Fertilizer stocks, alternative energy,railroad stocks, gold, all suddenly got very hot.

    I think those things, that heated up from 2005, is the current bubble. As western governments, print to compensate for weak private demand, you have stagnant food demand, and demand for commodities from the west. While, these printing, of course leads to a flow of investments into emerging economies, such as BRIC, as people try to protect from this inflation/printing. That then lowers interest rates in these emerging economies, more dollars all around these countries, that then have a further boom in consumer credit, fueling a further demand for food, etc, causing a squeeze..That's why fertilizers will boom, even demand in the west will be stagnant (or sticky). I think the fed will deal with inflation when it becomes a very obvious problem. However, I don't think they will attempt to kill it before the dow / gold ratio is between 2 and 1.
    Last edited by nero3; July 24, 2009, 02:54 PM.

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    • #17
      Re: Dow tops 9000 as home sales rise

      MM:

      Thank you for the (edit:new to me, not old) read. if anything, that backs up the point I brought up: declining home values will not spur demand for new homes. Increase in unit sales but why build more homes if there is still high inventory?

      nero:

      can you explain how you think rising interest rates will drive equities higher? If you're implying rates will be high because of inflation and said inflation will drive stocks then I suppose that makes sense. However, higher rates should mean stronger discounting of future earnings and therefore lower prices. In my limited experience, equities are inversely related to rates. IIRC fed cuts in 2007 is what juiced the market to its peak.

      P.S. if I'm boring anyone let me know.
      Last edited by snakela; July 24, 2009, 04:26 PM.

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      • #18
        Re: Dow tops 9000 as home sales rise

        Originally posted by snakela View Post
        MM:

        Thank you for the old (to me) read. if anything, that backs up the point I brought up: declining home values will not spur demand for new homes. Increase in unit sales but why build more homes if there is still high inventory?

        nero:

        can you explain how you think rising interest rates will drive equities higher? If you're implying rates will be high because of inflation and said inflation will drive stocks then I suppose that makes sense. However, higher rates should mean stronger discounting of future earnings and therefore lower prices. In my limited experience, equities are inversely related to rates. IIRC fed cuts in 2007 is what juiced the market to its peak.

        P.S. if I'm boring anyone let me know.
        You can have the long term rise, and the short term kept to low, giving you a negative real rates environment similar to the seventies.

        http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=^N225#chart3:symbol=^n225;range=my;compa re=^tnx+^dji;indicator=volume;charttype=line;cross hair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined

        here. The nikkei and the dow is at the same level. Nikkei was booming through the seventies and eigties, while the dow boomed throught the eighties and ninties. In 2003, they met relative to the yields on US gov bonds. Notice that lower yields means a lower japanese market, even a lower US market, after the bubble broke.

        As10 year rates rise, so will the market's..At around 6% 10 year rates there is a point where the US have serious inflation, and stagflation, while the japanse market, probably will surf on.

        When the 10 year last time hit 5 % in 07, the nikkei was around 18000. If the 10 year hit 6 % the nikkei could be in the area of 18-22000.

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        • #19
          Re: Dow tops 9000 as home sales rise

          Here is a picture to explain it:
          Attached Files

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          • #20
            Re: Dow tops 9000 as home sales rise

            Originally posted by Quincy K View Post
            You are basing your economic theories and investment strategies on the price of TOL and KBH? Or worse yet, the current run up in the casino(stock market) that is entirely manipulated by GS and followed by the unsuspecting sheeple?

            Once there is no more money to be made on the upside, GS and all their cronnies are going to make it on the downside.

            Haven't you figured this all out yet?
            It's not a casino. It's a discounting mechanism of future earnings. There is no better way to see where the housing market is going than to look at the homebuilders. Anyway, I think it's alternating.

            http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/CTX/charts?countryCode=US&submitted=true&intflavor=advanced&origurl=%2Ftools%2Fquotes%2Fintchart.asp&time=20&freq=1&comp=unp&compidx=aaaaa~0&compind=aaaaa~0&uf=0&ma=1&maval=50&lf=1&lf2=4&lf3=0&type=128&size=3&optstyle=380

            What is likely now is that UNP will behave as a echo of the housing bubble in terms of stock performance. From around now, to around 2014-2016, UNP will behave as CTX between 2000-2005.

            Same thing in the early seventies when homebuilders had it's glory, then towards the end of the seventies rails came back with revenge. Given the long term trends, stocks like PHM (same as Centex now), will probably be a very good investment at these levels.

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            • #21
              Re: Dow tops 9000 as home sales rise

              Originally posted by nero3 View Post
              It's not a casino. It's a discounting mechanism of future earnings.
              you are 100% brainwashed.

              forgot to discount the debt deflation bear market, did it?

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              • #22
                Re: Dow tops 9000 as home sales rise

                Debt deflation?

                Deflation? I believe it when I see it. Let me remind that private debt to gdp went down in the war, and post war period until 1950. No deflation in that period.

                http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=T...urce=undefined

                These things are going in waves. one way of looking at it is that fertilizers, and the general inflation plays is like computers stocks in 95-96, or homebuilders around 2000. It's no end to it. Just one new bubble after the other. After this inflation era is over, and the inflation bubbles goes pop, there will again be a deflationary boom, with the deflationary plays again hot. Just round after round.

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                • #23
                  Re: Dow tops 9000 as home sales rise

                  Originally posted by nero3 View Post
                  Debt deflation?

                  Deflation? I believe it when I see it. Let me remind that private debt to gdp went down in the war, and post war period until 1950. No deflation in that period.

                  http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=T...urce=undefined

                  These things are going in waves. one way of looking at it is that fertilizers, and the general inflation plays is like computers stocks in 95-96, or homebuilders around 2000. It's no end to it. Just one new bubble after the other. After this inflation era is over, and the inflation bubbles goes pop, there will again be a deflationary boom, with the deflationary plays again hot. Just round after round.
                  Have you taken the time to read any iTulip articles or do you just come here to spout your own theories in the forums? I don't understand why you seem completely unwilling to actually engage with the primary thesis around here.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Dow tops 9000 as home sales rise

                    I think housing might be dragged along by a surge in inflation, more than a new boom like the last, sort of like the nasdaq after 2003. I don't think the bottom in housing stocks have so much to do with these rules. I think it's more the general condition of the market's and the economy as a whole.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Dow tops 9000 as home sales rise

                      Originally posted by nero3 View Post
                      I think housing might be dragged along by a surge in inflation, more than a new boom like the last, sort of like the nasdaq after 2003. I don't think the bottom in housing stocks have so much to do with these rules. I think it's more the general condition of the market's and the economy as a whole.
                      Increases in RRE values correlating to an increase in the CPI is a fallacy under current conditions. Just as the theory that you need increased wages in order to have hyperinflation.

                      In most parts of the country (CAP rates at sub 2 percent/even less when factoring future vacany rates), the only way that RRE and CRE prices increase from their current levels is through a hyperinflationary episode.

                      At the end of the day, fundamentally-speaking, it is all about jobs, increased wages, interest rates and the health of the economy(UE rate).

                      Other than the probability of low interest rates due to monetization and concerted efforts by all the CB's, none of the other aforementioned factors look very promising right now.

                      I am still anticipating a 30-year, government recourse loan at 2-3 percent to be offered sometime in the near future. After all it's just paper.

                      And deficits, up to this point, have not mattered.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Dow tops 9000 as home sales rise

                        1. It is possible that a pegging of long term rates at a very low level as a way to boosting the economy will happen. That then will cause inflation and a rising stock market. eventually the fed will hike rates to kill inflation, even if it might take years before that point is reached. That will then dampen inflation, and cause a further rise in stocks.

                        2. Ur long rates could go up at the same time the short end is kept negative. That will certainly give some kind of boom.

                        Right now, it's looking a little like the last option I think. I am quite bullish on inflation , precious metals, emerging market stocks, and pretty much everything that is normally performing well in times of a flat US stock market.

                        It's possible that money printing, as in option one, could raise the dow quite far, like after 1943, and then, when rates are raised as in 1949, you just get even a further rise. Todays level on the dow could be much lower than most think.

                        At least here in Norway, inflation is very rampant now. especially in food and chocolate. At the same time, the dollar is dropping, so I can imagine it's even worse in the US. Chocolate have been averaging around 8-10 % a year, the last 6 years I think, but now I think it is even moving into the 13-15 % range.
                        Last edited by nero3; July 25, 2009, 03:09 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Dow tops 9000 as home sales rise

                          Originally posted by nero3 View Post
                          At least here in Norway, inflation is very rampant now. especially in food and chocolate.... Chocolate have been averaging around 8-10 % a year, the last 6 years I think, but now I think it is even moving into the 13-15 % range.
                          For those not familiar with this, chocolate is a major component of the CPI in Norway, due to its use as a substitute for heating oil during the long winter months.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Dow tops 9000 as home sales rise

                            Originally posted by thousandmilemargin View Post
                            For those not familiar with this, chocolate is a major component of the CPI in Norway, due to its use as a substitute for heating oil during the long winter months.
                            Thanks for correcting my longstanding impression that the biggest component in Norway's CPI is lutefisk...

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                            • #29
                              Re: Dow tops 9000 as home sales rise

                              Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                              Thanks for correcting my longstanding impression that the biggest component in Norway's CPI is lutefisk...

                              As mentioned before, under a deflationary scenario as japan, you would espect housing to overshoot, however, in the inflationary environment you get the "soft pillow" effect.

                              I hate lutefisk, and I say that without ever having tasted it

                              Leave tradition for the old. Anyhow, I know my chocolate. Prices and inflation was first kept in check by moving production to eastern europe, in the late 1990-s, however, there comes a time when inflation comes harder and harder to keep in check. After production was moved, the quality of the taste went down.

                              1 year ago, it was 23 NOK, then it was 25 later in the year , and now, it's at around 27 1 year later, that is a 200 gram plate of milk chocolate from freia, the biggest brand here (from kraft foods) (yes they bought up the brand and moved out production, like you espect from Big capitalism), translated to dollars it's 4,35 dollars for a 200 gram plate of milk chocolate, made in eastern europe by kraft foods. I'd say kraft foods is an excellent stock to own for the long term, with excellent pricing power, at least in norway, due to their portfolio of high quality brand names.
                              Last edited by nero3; July 27, 2009, 09:28 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Dow tops 9000 as home sales rise

                                From my favorite blog:









                                I am sorry do disappoint some of the die hard pessimists, but the the housing market are bottoming or have bottomed out. Arguing with the numbers, and figures, thinking one is smart, is just being stupid.

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