EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

[flintlock]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

They even have Youtube videos showing an amp meter dropping when the device is turned on. Only they forget to mention the power company meter will never reflect this. Very convincing if you don't know better.

[media][/media]
As far as these capacitors for cars, I suspect the same type of "science" may be involved. If its legit, some larger company will buy it and run with it. If not, it will remain in the realm of the scammy.

[newnewthing]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

As far as these capacitors for cars, I suspect the same type of "science" may be involved. If its legit, some larger company will buy it and run with it. If not, it will remain in the realm of the scammy

Ultra caps are legitimate when applied to hybrid or local, electric only vehicles. The EEStor specs would, if realized, cause quite an improvement in hybrid performance. I just don't believe it is ready for prime time, let alone delivery this year. Since Zenn's approach is to use minimal investment in EEStore to justfiy selling much larger $ of Zenn shares to the public their motivation is obvious. That this is the game is evident from the time they announced the EEStor deal through their IPO and secondaries.

The claim that the vehicles they are selling are ready for snapping in EEStor's modules makes me more suspicious. Lead acid batteries and Ultracaps are very different animals with very different control electronics and protocols required.

My take is that Zenn is the principal scammer and the EEStor people are just using the left over table scraps to pursue their dream. Once ensconced, no one wants to leave the gravy train.

[jeremyr]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

Ultra caps are legitimate when applied to hybrid or local, electric only vehicles. The EEStor specs would, if realized, cause quite an improvement in hybrid performance. I just don't believe it is ready for prime time, let alone delivery this year. Since Zenn's approach is to use minimal investment in EEStore to justfiy selling much larger $ of Zenn shares to the public their motivation is obvious. That this is the game is evident from the time they announced the EEStor deal through their IPO and secondaries.

The claim that the vehicles they are selling are ready for snapping in EEStor's modules makes me more suspicious. Lead acid batteries and Ultracaps are very different animals with very different control electronics and protocols required.

My take is that Zenn is the principal scammer and the EEStor people are just using the left over table scraps to pursue their dream. Once ensconced, no one wants to leave the gravy train.

EEStor has been talking about this break through Ultra cap for at least 3+ years now. I still have not seen any real independant (someone without financial interests in EEStor) tests of the product. So, I think their Ultra cap is a scam or its not going to be ready of prime time anytime in the near future.

[flintlock]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

I've personally seen "breakthroughs" like this go on for years only to end up sputtering out when potential investors realized the company developing the technology couldn't show proof of concept. A former business partner of mine. He was really good though. He had a long line of Venture capitalists, Arab sheiks, a congressman or two, a major security company, even a well known athlete, all interested when he really didn't have more than a vague concept. This went on for several years of meetings and discussions before people realized he didn't have shit. It was quite amusing to see other companies trying to spy on him to find out what he was up to that was making such a buzz. Phony offers of buyouts, when all they really wanted to know was what he was up to.

Not saying this capacitor business is a scam, just that it happens, and a good one can milk the news of an impending breakthrough for years.

[Glenn Black]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

Let's assume for a moment that EESTOR and Zenn are legitimate.

Where does all the electricity come from to charge these super capacitors?

From today's electrical grid? I don't think so.

Most of the grids today are at or beyond saturation load. They overheat so bad the cables stretch, neck down to thinner cables, overheat more, then collapse totally.

Whether the electricity is generated by coal, oil, natural gas, or nuclear, almost all work on a simple cycle which is ~34% efficient at best. That means we get 100% of the pollution for only 34% of the energy ending up as electrons in the wires, ready to do work. Another 9 to 12% is lost due to resistance in transmission wires, transformers, and switchgear, leaving us with ~30% efficiency by the time it gets to your house.

Capacitors charge and store on DC. To change from AC to DC, you need a rectifier. Most rectifiers today that are commercially available are 90% efficient. Now our overall cycle efficiency is 27%.

Today's high efficiency ICE (Internal Combustion Engines) are about 32% efficient. ICE is better than the electrical option, even if we assume EESTOR is 100% efficient.

Take how much gasoline and diesel fuel we consume today. Convert that into kW-hrs equivalents if we go to electric vehicles.

If only 1% of population plugs in cars during the day when electricity use is high (eg. everybody is asked to charge car at night when elec. demand is low, but we want to go see Aunt Betty with the kids on a day trip, and we need to re-charge before we head back home after our visit; or we have a business trip, usually in the day). When 1% plug in, they flatten the grid with the excessive load.

There is no way to get that much electricity, even if EESTOR and Zenn is 100% as advertised.

Grid electricity is a huge problem, not a solution.

Dream on!

[santafe2]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

Grid electricity is a huge problem, not a solution.

Your post and this response are a well off topic but I want to address this contention as I think it's 180 degrees off center. Grids will become smarter grids and then truly smart grids over time. Electricity is a thing that produces energy from every source. Grid based electricity is how we will move forward. Conservation and population control is the solution but that's a much bigger issue to be addressed at another time.

[plinko]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

just saw this link from a mailing list:

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/...k-weir-confirm

hopefully we'll know soon

[flintlock]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

just saw this link from a mailing list:

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/...k-weir-confirm

hopefully we'll know soon

Sounds like what we heard in the run up to the Segway unveiling. Lots of supposedly secretive stuff being leaked out about a "breakthrough" that would change our lives. Why give an interview if it was not supposed to be heard and was "leaked"? :rolleyes: I can hear it now, "This was only meant for a select group of investors who have been specially selected to get in on the ground floor, but you must act today!". The "secrecy" makes me skeptical.

Oh, well, like you said, we'll find out soon enough. I'd settle for flashlight batteries that lasted longer.

[cobben]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

ABB is saying that electric car batteries can be used as dynamic energy storage for the grid.
ABB is well worth watching, have not been hurt by the financial crisis, business as usual essentially, just got a big order in Brazil.

Smart grids portal

ABB's commmitment to smart grids

http://www.abb.com/cawp/db0003db0026...300520D8B.aspx

integration of electric vehicle into existing power systems could become an important means of introducing renewable energy to the transport sector, as well as providing power storage facilities for the system in the form of vehicle batteries.

[sunskyfan]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

Sounds interesting. Who knows until something real happens?

A couple points ... don't expect a big existing corporation to validate or help develop this technology or anything like it. America doesn't work that way ... Xerox and IBM did not create Apple or Microsoft. GM killed their own product and themselves for that matter to preserve the past.

The grid electricity analysis by Glenn Black is right on. Las Alamos's micro reactors will solve that and they are soon to be deployed.

How about the idea of a tax based on the distance you live from your place of work? Simple.

[newnewthing]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

.. don't expect a big existing corporation to validate or help develop this technology or anything like it. America doesn't work that way ... Xerox and IBM did not create Apple or Microsoft. GM killed their own product and themselves for that matter to preserve the past.

No, Microsoft got kick-started by the nascent IBM pc division. Prior to that they just mucked around in the 8 bit, 8080 CPM world. The IBM/Microsoft joint dev. of MSDOS and the publicly released BIOS blew away Digital Research's lock on pc os software. The CPM community was rife with proprietary disk sectoring and driver schemes so each tiny company could protect their niche. IBM blew up that stagnating pond.

[Ghent12]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

I agree with flintlock about the dubiousness of the "secret" meeting.

Your post and this response are a well off topic but I want to address this contention as I think it's 180 degrees off center. Grids will become smarter grids and then truly smart grids over time. Electricity is a thing that produces energy from every source. Grid based electricity is how we will move forward. Conservation and population control is the solution but that's a much bigger issue to be addressed at another time.

A "Smart Grid" is a farce, at present. Billions of electronic devices to turn off your appliances or lights, trillions of dollars of investment, etc. Really? That's the solution?

A modern grid would be a real alternative. Bigger cables, etc., to handle the loads.