EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

[santafe2]

While I know the pretenders from the players in my industry, I don't know anyone that has a handle on this company. If you do, I'd like to know more. I'm highly skeptical because secretive almost always translates as scam.

Ian Clifford is the CEO of Toronto-based Zenn Motor Company (ZNN.V). His company has a unique relationship with the secretive and fascinating Texas startup called EEStor.

But almost always, even if it's 99%, is not always and every once in a while, a technology comes along that changes the playground rules. Since I'm already sure electricity is the only way we'll continue to be mobile like we are today, I'm suspect of any leaning I may have toward this technology.

So, if you're a scientist who understands the technology from that point of view or an industry insider with a credible point of view, I'd like to know. Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEStor
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/...ered-in-months

[rshimada]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

There is a HUGE amount of skepticism about EEStor. Check out http://theeestory.com.

At least Nanosolar has shipped product, though nobody seems to say how well it works.

[we_are_toast]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

If half their claims are true, this would be a real game changer. The ability to deep cycle caps for thousands of cycles, along with the quick charging time would make batteries obsolete. And if the price is anywhere near what they claim, we will be moving to an electric world (solar, wind) before we know it.

Unfortunately, it sounds like there's a few too many ifs.

[newnewthing]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

I'm an EE by profession though currently a private (angel) investor. Assuming the specs are accurate, this would be a major player in combination with fuel cells or traditional hybrid tech by significantly reducing the traditional engine requirements. Immunity to deep cycling combined with high efficiency is key. It could also be combined with Li-ion cells to buffer high charge/discharge (acceleration and braking) for a completely electric vehicle.

The energy density is quit high. While they say it is not explosive, a rough calculation indicates failure mechanisms must be investigated. Especially critical for larger sizes.

I haven't run across them before but the allure of big bucks in alt-e apps has produced a large number of marginal, overstated, companies in this field. Could be great but proceed with caution.


I see a couple red flags though.

1. The exclusive licensee is a pretty small maker that currently uses lead acid cells for a small, slow, vehicle. I would expect them to be able to do a much more lucrative deal with a larger company. I would delve deeply into that relationship

2. Toronto??

3. Lack of independant assessment.

4. In any company like this the details of formation, capital injections, and current capital structure in addition to a technical evaluation is what I would want to understand and look for.

(I love the title!)
-newnewthing

[c1ue]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

There was a previous thread about using 'new technology' capacitors to store energy in cars - I distinctly remember asking questions about things like catastrophic energy release in an accident.

I cannot remember if the company was EEStor or not.

Cursory Google searches (at least by me) have not been successful.

EJ's Pit Bull? :rolleyes:

[newnewthing]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

I'm now tending toward the "scam" side of things. Zenn is hyping EEStor electric cars with avaiability in the fall. Oh, and they will go 200 miles one one charge. This is patent nonsense in real conditions but perhaps if they ran the thing on a smooth closed track at a constant 20 mph.

This spring EEStor announced a major breakthrough. Permittivity of the small particles was verified by independent sources at over 20,000. Breakthrough? Hardly. Nothing particularly impressive about high permittivity given no info about the E field strength.

The device uses a specialized chemical powder called barium titanate which is alumina-coated (CMBT) and is theorized to be not only is capable of very high power density, but very high energy density.

So it's just a theory? And Zenn is going to sell cars with them and get a 200 m range? Zenn's out when it falls apart? They just depended on the specs EEStor provided. And EEStor promised. Really they did.

http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/22/breaki...ity-certified/


As an old business acquaintance once noted: "They look to be taking in some new investors."

[newnewthing]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

Check out Zenn's financials. No doubt about what Zenn's biz is. Selling shares. The proceeds from that far exceed their so called business, selling smallish electric cars. And look at the income statement. Whoeee, what a stinker. Nice balance sheet thoug. They are good at taking in new investors.

http://www.zenncars.com/html/investo...ion/index.html

The ROI is great on the EEStor investment Zenn made. It looks like they have take in around 4x more money selling Zenn shares than it's cost them to buy the EEStor stock used to hype it.

Yep, it all makes sense. Thanks for the entertainment, santafe2. I really enjoy sussing out these things. There are variations on this theme everywhere.

[santafe2]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

Permittivity of the small particles was verified by independent sources at over 20,000. Breakthrough? Hardly. Nothing particularly impressive about high permittivity given no info about the E field strength.

I think the claim was made unique because permittivity is professed between -20C and 65C. I did notice that the permittivity test was done at low voltage with a powder. That is, there are still no components being tested so it's highly unlikely they'll have a prototype at the end of the year.

The ROI is great on the EEStor investment Zenn made. It looks like they have take in around 4x more money selling Zenn shares than it's cost them to buy the EEStor stock used to hype it.

Great find, thanks. Locally a franchise opened up in Albuquerque. I'll be interested to hear their sales pitch. Will they be selling the 35-40mpg golf cart quality electric car they have today or selling the vaporware EEStor is talking about.

It will be fun to revisit this thread in 6 months.

[flintlock]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

Interesting but I'm always skeptical of any "new" technology breakthrough.

As a residential electrician, I am sometimes asked to install "power saving" devices that are basically just capacitors. These have been around for years in industrial use and they do work, but on a residence they will not reflect any cost savings to the owner, as residential meters do not measure VA, they measure watts. Well anyway, companies are out there now marketing these "powersaving" devices to homeowners claiming huge energy savings. They quote various studies done by labs that turn out to be questionable at best. And the anecdotal "evidence" given from customers swear they save 25% off their monthly power bill, when from what I understand, that is impossible.

Bald face lying has become standard practice in America, so you really have to approach these things with caution.

[newnewthing]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

Interesting but I'm always skeptical of any "new" technology breakthrough.

As a residential electrician, I am sometimes asked to install "power saving" devices that are basically just capacitors. These have been around for years in industrial use and they do work, but on a residence they will not reflect any cost savings to the owner, as residential meters do not measure VA, they measure watts. Well anyway, companies are out there now marketing these "powersaving" devices to homeowners claiming huge energy savings. They quote various studies done by labs that turn out to be questionable at best. And the anecdotal "evidence" given from customers swear they save 25% off their monthly power bill, when from what I understand, that is impossible.

Bald face lying has become standard practice in America, so you really have to approach these things with caution.

I agree with you. Here's an interesting discussion on such a device.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=93506

[mooncliff]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

Note that when gas prices were through the roof, suddenly there were "cars that run on water" everywhere, and then we hear nothing further. Now electric cars are the rage, so since the battery is the problem, we get a miracle solution. What I think is the tipoff is that these are touted as solving problems for CARS. If the water engine worked, it would be used for electrical power plants. If this device worked, it would have much broader applicability than just cars. Narrow application of a power source or a power storage device just seems plain odd... sorta like saying that one has a working cold fusion reactor, but it only works in cars... or that one has a matter-antimatter reactor, but it only works on starships.

[newnewthing]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

Note that when gas prices were through the roof, suddenly there were "cars that run on water" everywhere, and then we hear nothing further. Now electric cars are the rage, so since the battery is the problem, we get a miracle solution. What I think is the tipoff is that these are touted as solving problems for CARS. If the water engine worked, it would be used for electrical power plants. If this device worked, it would have much broader applicability than just cars. Narrow application of a power source or a power storage device just seems plain odd... sorta like saying that one has a working cold fusion reactor, but it only works in cars... or that one has a matter-antimatter reactor, but it only works on starships.

Yeah. When you see these things tied to specific products one's scam sensor tickles. Ground floor. Poised for explosive growth. Check's in the mail.

[newnewthing]

Blacklight Power, An Evolved Scam, or Revolution

This puppy is one worth observing. The founder, Dr. Mills, has doggedly pursued the idea of an energy source based on the hypothetical existance of a stable, below ground state, form of Hydrogen. He calls this a "Hydrino." The name "blackpower" relates to the emission of a uv photon upon transition.

http://www.nytimes.com/external/vent...cla-99377.html

He's taken in private investors to the tune of $60,000 so far.

If the theory is bogus, and I consider that highly likely, then this is more high end crackpottery than scam though the effect on investor's wallets is indistinguishable.

[flintlock]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

I agree with you. Here's an interesting discussion on such a device.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=93506

That's the one. The thing is, I get calls from people all the time who have bought into this multi-level marketing scam. They want me to install them for their customers. I mention they may want to look into the legitimacy of these products before they start selling them to their friends and family. They reply by offering up all kinds of supposedly scientific tests as proof. I used to argue with them, now I say, "Sure, $150 a pop, just don't ask me to sell them for you".

[newnewthing]

Re: EEStor, scam or new-new thing?

That's the one. The thing is, I get calls from people all the time who have bought into this multi-level marketing scam. They want me to install them for their customers. I mention they may want to look into the legitimacy of these products before they start selling them to their friends and family. They reply by offering up all kinds of supposedly scientific tests as proof. I used to argue with them, now I say, "Sure, $150 a pop, just don't ask me to sell them for you".

I have looked at the device and associated "scientific tests" and it is simply nonsense. The sales pitch is misleading as hell. Since, as you pointed out, residences are metered in watt hours, this has no value except to save the electricity provider a very tiny amount of resistive loss. Doesn't help one's bill in the least.

I like your solution.