Nothing but the best for the Brave British troops!

[Mega]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wor...%2C_MoD_Admits

Well, all i can say is thank God for the Falklands war back in 1982!
Mike

[Ghent12]

Re: Nothing but the best for the Brave British troops!

I'm sorry, I just don't understand the complaint. The report is that a helicopter used by MoD has been repaired in the past, and that in-and-of-itself is a bad thing?

Commercial and general military equipment is perpetually salvaged. That's the point! To make things work from things that previously did not work.

[rj1]

Re: Nothing but the best for the Brave British troops!

Ghent's right Mega. My dad worked on CH-46 helicopters for 10 years for the US Marines and Navy. Especially in the case of older aircraft that don't have large repair/procurement budgets, this is the norm. Helicopters all have clips that are essentially sections that can be cut out, removed, and replaced. This is what saves money in repair and maintenance as well as prompt speed to make a fix. So if you have a crashed aircraft that can take a perfectly good section from another crashed aircraft to make the fix, you do it. The other part is inspected thoroughly to make sure there's no damage and then it gets installed and welded in.

[D-Mack]

Re: Nothing but the best for the Brave British troops!

Helicopter crashes in Afghanistan, 15 feared killed
Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:09am EDT

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KABUL, July 19 (Reuters) - A civilian helicopter crashed in southern Afghanistan's Kandahar province on Sunday, the U.S. military said, and a Russian news agency reported 15 people killed.

U.S. military spokeswoman Lieutenant Commander Christine Sidenstricker gave no other details. Russia's Interfax news agency reported that 15 people had been killed in the crash of a Russian-built Mi-8 helicopter at Kandahar's main air base.
http://www.reuters.com/article/lates.../idUSISL397901

Shit happens and stuff falls from the sky

[flintlock]

Re: Nothing but the best for the Brave British troops!

It's not like they are worried about resale value.

Sounds like this is common practice, but I get your point. We do the same thing here. The government can find the money for bailouts, but some of the treatment our veterans are getting is shameful.

[GRG55]

Re: Nothing but the best for the Brave British troops!

Ghent's right Mega. My dad worked on CH-46 helicopters for 10 years for the US Marines and Navy. Especially in the case of older aircraft that don't have large repair/procurement budgets, this is the norm. Helicopters all have clips that are essentially sections that can be cut out, removed, and replaced. This is what saves money in repair and maintenance as well as prompt speed to make a fix. So if you have a crashed aircraft that can take a perfectly good section from another crashed aircraft to make the fix, you do it. The other part is inspected thoroughly to make sure there's no damage and then it gets installed and welded in.

Hell, this is a normal outcome everywhere from the "Peace Dividend" isn't it?

We Canadians are experts at keeping obsolete military equipment working. A small example from earlier this decade...

Posters poke fun at Canada's aging Sea King helicopters

Last Updated: Thursday, November 7, 2002 | 12:32 AM ET


Canada's aging fleet of Sea King helicopters have become the butt of a joke by anonymous pranksters.

The Sea Kings are 40 years old and keeping them in the air requires 30 hours of maintenance for every hour of flying time. Now the helicopters are also being featured on bogus recruiting posters around the armed forces. One poster shows a crashed Sea King on its side and a caption that reads: 'It's more than a career, it's an adventure.'...

Shortly after moving to the Arabian Gulf some years ago, I was invited to a Canadian expat social function hosted by our Ambassador on board one the Canadian Forces frigates serving with the US Navy led task force. Each frigate has a Sea King helicopter on it. I asked our guide if there were any pilots in the Armed Forces older than the helicopters they were flying...nope. Being a private sector entreprenuer, and thus always on the lookout for opportunties, I then suggested to the commanding officer that we raise some money for our chronically underfunded military by raffling off the ancient helicopter as a "gangplank prize" for the assembled guests. In an astute alternative move to reduce taxpayer costs they cut me off from the bar...

[rj1]

Re: Nothing but the best for the Brave British troops!

Hell, this is a normal outcome everywhere from the "Peace Dividend" isn't it?

We Canadians are experts at keeping obsolete military equipment working. A small example from earlier this decade...

Well geez, CH-46s (official nickname is Sea Knight, but their slang nickname is Phrog) were first used in Vietnam. I was in one that was sent for repair and its initial manufacturing date inside was listed as 1962. And they had to continue using them until they were comfortable deploying the V-22 Osprey, it's scheduled replacement. They're right now in the middle of the last phase of getting rid of the CH-46 in place of the V-22, but the CH-46 was a good helicopter that could take a beating and continue functioning well in brutal environments.

It's either keep what you have working or spend millions upon millions to build new ones, but the key to having a good military is to get the most bang for your buck with good personnel that know how to do their job while keeping your equipment functioning properly.

[GRG55]

Re: Nothing but the best for the Brave British troops!

Well geez, CH-46s (official nickname is Sea Knight, but their slang nickname is Phrog) were first used in Vietnam. I was in one that was sent for repair and its initial manufacturing date inside was listed as 1962. And they had to continue using them until they were comfortable deploying the V-22 Osprey, it's scheduled replacement. They're right now in the middle of the last phase of getting rid of the CH-46 in place of the V-22, but the CH-46 was a good helicopter that could take a beating and continue functioning well in brutal environments.

It's either keep what you have working or spend millions upon millions to build new ones, but the key to having a good military is to get the most bang for your buck with good personnel that know how to do their job while keeping your equipment functioning properly.

Actually you and I are in agreement. The Sea King helicopter that I made fun of was an exceptional machine in its day, and remains in service today due to repeated delays with the delivery of its replacement [now scheduled for first delivery in 2011]. No doubt like military organizations all over the world the Canadian Armed Forces, and the civilian contractors that support it, are quite creative at keeping equipment in operation. If I recall correctly some years ago we figured out how to "zero time" the airframes of our well-worn Northrup F-5 fighter lead-in trainers and extend their useful life. Might have to do that again with our fast aging MD F-18 fleet some day soon...

[Mega]

Re: Nothing but the best for the Brave British troops!

V-22 Osprey?What, they got that into service yet?
Last time i looked it killed a shed full of troops.
Mike

[snakela]

Re: Nothing but the best for the Brave British troops!

30 hrs maint vs. 1 hour operating doesn't sound unreasonable for turbo machinery operating in the desert.

[snakela]

Re: Nothing but the best for the Brave British troops!

V-22 Osprey?What, they got that into service yet?
Last time i looked it killed a shed full of troops.
Mike

I saw many in Iraq. People still joke about the high visibility crashes.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Nothing but the best for the Brave British troops!

Helos/Rotary Wing assets are critically needed in Afghanistan for LOTS of reasons.

In incredibly challenging topography with extremely weak transport infrastructure their role as force multipliers is huge.

Helos are also able to reduce the significant threat of roadside IED contacts in a number of ways.

Due to the altitude, operating performance of helos is compromised in Afghanistan.

Chinooks are in GREAT demand in Afghanistan due to their high performance.

Chinook's can't be newly manufactured like sausages or refurbed as quickly as changing the plugs in a Buick.

I've flown in military fixed and rotary wing airframes older than me and I'm 40....well maintained and well flown = no worries

While using a 25 year old war prize airframe as the core of a refurbed operational aircraft is highly unusual, but less unusual than the C130 recovered to flying condition after being buried in ice/snow in Antarctica for a few decades fro an accident in the early 70's.

For the Poms, restoring an airframe to flying condition could be viewed as prduent.

But the 8 Chinooks' they ordered in 1995 and forecast for delivery and service being 1998 have suffered a decade plus of project mismanagement with the first airframe only flying it's first test flight a fortnight ago.

Whoever was managing that project, had they been in service in a reasonable period of time, could have possibly saved lives risked and lost due to shortage of helo lift.

Just my 0.02c

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Nothing but the best for the Brave British troops!

30 hrs maint vs. 1 hour operating doesn't sound unreasonable for turbo machinery operating in the desert.

One of the things that will surely prove "interesting" is the hollowing out of aircraft fleets from western militaries serving on operations in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

The actuaries who modeled the useful lives and hourly/lifetime operating costs of aircraft when airframe procurement and planning was performed "way back when" likely didn't include excessive "wear and tear" from long counter insurgency wars impacting entire aircraft fleets.

It's probably analogous in a way to defined benefit pension plan actuaries assuming high returns in perpetuity and not much "wear and tear" on capital.

Just my 0.02c

[Ghent12]

Re: Nothing but the best for the Brave British troops!

V-22 Osprey?What, they got that into service yet?
Last time i looked it killed a shed full of troops.
Mike

Perhaps it is good that you are not in a position to make policy on the matter, then. The media does not report "all is well today with xxxxxx" unless they are selling something.

[Mega]

Re: Nothing but the best for the Brave British troops!

Are they using them in Afgan?
How much are they new?
Tricky to fly?
Whats the lead time (Order to delivery)?
Mike