The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

[santafe2]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Thanks for the explanation, it's very helpful.

The reason I ask is that in the late 70's I met many thermal solar installers who were too dishonest to find a job as used car salesmen.

A guy who lives near to me just put a system in that cost about 3 times what I found the components for on the internet, and that was without installation costs! There's also a very wide difference in the component prices on the internet. I'm just wondering if the industry has changed since the 70's.

There are a lot of good installers in Colorado and most locations have a rebate at $2-$3 per installed watt. With the Federal rebate, about 1/2 the system cost is off-set. This is for solar electric systems. Solar thermal systems for water and space heating is a different game and can be much more complex. That said, the payback on solar thermal is much faster if it's installed correctly. As you note, the overall quality of installation in the late 70s left much to be desired.

[icm63]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Read the number one selling book on Amazon on the Climate Change AIRCON !
Amazon : here
Video Intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hro-8...eature=related
l_aircon5.jpg

Short Answer : Man made climate change is horse sh*t ! Just a method to impose a world wide value added tax based on carbon ommissions ! Leftys trick !

[santafe2]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Short Answer : Man made climate change is horse sh*t ! Just a method to impose a world wide value added tax based on carbon ommissions ! Leftys trick !

Is this the same author who said, "Science has not proved the Old Testament is wrong. Not even in one little paragraph."?

Or this gem, "Science is faith based."

It's counter productive to advocate on this thread for a person who thinks the world is 7,000 years old...or maybe you're being sarcastic and I missed the smiley?

[halcyon]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Short Answer : Man made climate change is horse sh*t ! Just a method to impose a world wide value added tax based on carbon ommissions ! Leftys trick !

yEAH!!! Bring down those Evil-commie-Rotschild-lefties who pull the strings behind the curtains!

They wanna tax us and give the money to the alien-lizards!

They've been working in collusion with zionist-freemason-Illuminati for 30 generations now - planning this global-warming-thingy since the beginning!!!

YOu can read all about IN MY SUPER website - it's all 100% fact-chekked, proofed and none of that peer-review science cr¤p!!!

http://www.sjgames.com/illuminati/

[icm63]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

The last two posts are by those who are too scared to read the true facts as they would then have to change there dogma "world is over" view.

Dont believe me, just review there mickey mouse espressions.

[santafe2]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

The last two posts are by those who are too scared to read the true facts as they would then have to change there dogma "world is over" view.

Dont believe me, just review there mickey mouse espressions.

I'm not sure you read what I wrote. I certainly did not aim my comments at you. My opinion, based on my reading of this guy is that he's a grade A, crackpot with a religious agenda a mile long. He's as goofy as the conspiracy theory lunatics on the left...Alex Jones comes to mind. That you lent your good name on iTulip to this gibberish surprised me.

Again, I didn't say there aren't good, scientifically supported arguments for AGM being red herring. c1ue, GRG and others here present them regularly and I enjoy reading their presentations and working through their logic - but this guy is a nut. Here's an example from the book:

What they [left wing green nuts] really mean is that they want ordinary families and kids to become extinct, leaving space for the Green elite to run the planet and enjoy exclusive bird-watching excursions while feasting on the bones of six year olds who’d earlier been sold to Asian brothels.

If those are the "true facts" I'll be missing, so be it.

[icm63]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

My opinion, based on my reading of this guy is that he's a grade A, crackpot with a religious agenda a mile long. He's as goofy as the conspiracy theory lunatics on the left...

AIRCON review from serious folk who dont think like you :

I commend this timely book, which makes the scientific arguments comprehensible to the layman. Those who read it will help to forestall the new Fascists and so to keep us free. --Lord Christopher Monckton, Viscount of Brenchley, former scientific advisor to Margaret Thatcher --Christopher Monckton, Viscount of Brenchley

I started reading this book with an intensely critical eye, expecting that a mere journalist could not possibly cope with the complexities of climate science ... [But] He gives chapter and verse for almost everything he says.
The book is brilliant. The best I have seen which deals with the news item side of it as well as the science. He has done a very thorough job and I have no hesitation in unreserved commendation. It has come along at the time we most need it and I hope it is published and publicized widely. --Dr Vincent Gray, UN IPCC expert reviewer
This book by New Zealand journalist Ian Wishart a #1 bestselling author four times, surprised me by the completeness with which he reviewed and presents alternatives to the plethora of IPCC inspired spin and publicity which floods our media today.
His sixteen chapters examining aspects of the debate are meticulously footnoted and thus are a valuable reference resource for those wishing to dig deeper or keep up to speed with the unfolding global warming / carbon reduction political drama in years to come. --Dr Warwick Hughes, climatologist

These folk are not left, nor idiots !

[santafe2]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

AIRCON review from serious folk who dont think like you...These folk are not left, nor idiots !

That some other people with the same political leanings are willing to support this screed, is meaningless. This is a religious and political zealot who characterizes science as a "faith" and thinks the Old Testament is word for word, the absolute truth. Fine. I could care less if he has that thinking. But why would anyone without a right wing political agenda, take a book on a scientific subject seriously when it's written by someone who does not take science seriously AND is not a scientist?

Instead of pointing to authority like Lord Monckton like you've just pulled a magic rabbit out of your hat, try taking the time to research an issue from the book and supporting that. How about his assertion that polar bears are just fine, thank you?! No problem here, move along...this bear's got more space than he knows what to do with..:rolleyes:

PolarBear.jpg

[Chris Coles]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

That some other people with the same political leanings are willing to support this screed, is meaningless. This is a religious and political zealot who characterizes science as a "faith" and thinks the Old Testament is word for word, the absolute truth. Fine. I could care less if he has that thinking. But why would anyone without a right wing political agenda, take a book on a scientific subject seriously when it's written by someone who does not take science seriously AND is not a scientist?

Instead of pointing to authority like Lord Monckton like you've just pulled a magic rabbit out of your hat, try taking the time to research an issue from the book and supporting that. How about his assertion that polar bears are just fine, thank you?! No problem here, move along...this bear's got more space than he knows what to do with..:rolleyes:

[ATTACH]2286[/ATTACH]

And even more particularly that bear has probably got a hundred mile swim or drown in prospect.

Let me see if I can put the debate onto another level. Look back a century. I doubt there were more than a few hundred vehicles. Today there are about 900,000,000. Now, imagine that every time you see a five lane highway full of vehicles, you do not see the vehicles, but instead a highway full of raging fires, moreover, giving off three times more energy than it takes to actually move each vehicle. Then again, go home and when you turn on the air-con, instead of cool air, you see another fire, again, three times more than the energy used by the air-con. Now add that up for every vehicle and every air-con. None of those fires existed a century ago. Then, the only fires were for heating when you were cold, or cooking when you were hungry and then, each time, the heat was what you needed and used. With vehicles and air-con you use three times as much due to the inefficiency of the engine that drives the vehicle or air-con.

Please, do not give me any more arguments that we are not heating up the planet.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Please, do not give me any more arguments that we are not heating up the planet.

Sliced Tofu with Spicy Marinade

2 teaspoons fresh ginger
2 tablespoons soy sauce
2 tablespoons of water
Juice of one lime
Two cloves of garlic
Pinch of red pepper
Mix above ingredients in a blender.

Drain Tofu.
Slice into cubes in original container.
Pour marinade over tofu and refrigerate.

Stuck inside of Mobile with the Memphis blues again...

[vinoveri]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Please, do not give me any more arguments that we are not heating up the planet.

And there's more ...

6 billion people radiating 100 watts (at least) of thermal energy each, and we humans sure are putting off a lot of heat, to the tune of 600 Gigawatts! :rolleyes:

[halcyon]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

AIRCON review from serious folk who dont think like you

These folk are not left, nor idiots !

Yeah, Lord Monckkkton! He's DA MAN! He's a REAL SCIENTIST, he's got a degree in classics and a diploma in journalism! THats 100000 better than that physics crap. Or maths! Or Biology! Or chemistry! None of that hard science crap. Just read the classics, Plato knew it all!

MOnckton's no commie, nooooo! He's got the check for $1million from Exxon to prove it. All for protection of CO2! He's an environmentalist at heart! He's also very good in other sciences, like medicine: He thinks' AIDS is a homosexual disease, which it is. He advocates pooling all AIDS patients and snuffin'em. I'm for that. None of that leftie-commie-wing-crap. BULLET IN THE HEAD!

Vincent Gray da man2! No science papers either for him on climate crap for this guy! Only funding from da coal industry, which is the best electricity around! CLEAN COAL! THE FUTURE. Hasn't done any research for 17 years. This shows that this guy doesn't like that skience-crap either.


icm63,

It's called parody, just with some facts sprinkled in there to make it more fun.

Just like your argument is based on the facts that people who believe and act on IPCC models are leftie nutjobs, I can say that the people you quote are slimeballs.

Who gives IF they are lefties or slimeballs. Only the science matters, and on those the people you quote have no overrruling proof. If they had, it'd be the on the front page of Science and Nature. Trust me. Nobody would like more than have this whole thing called off.

To believe that all the world's climate scientists conspired to cook up a story, that's just silly children's stories on the level of "Illuminati control the world".

But don't mind, you're plonked as it is. Have a nice life with your alternative exxon-funded science without any peer-reviewed studies or data proof.

[santafe2]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Here's a fun little chart I put together this morning. It shows the percentage increase in CO2 at the Mauna Loa research center. They've been recording data there for 50 years. I'll avoid making an AGM argument, but there are a couple of things worth noting:

• The rate of Change in atmospheric CO2 has never been negative during this period.
• The rate of change has gotten greater over the last 50 years.
• There is a coincidence of a lower rate of change and recessions, (except 1964).
• This recession is the worst since 1982 but the rate of change has remained stubbornly high, (so other recessions were coincidence only?).

We can see from the data that even during a recessionary year, the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere increases. While we can't yet concretely tie this to climate change, we should have extremely clear evidence at 500 ppm CO2 and given the current trajectory, it won't be that long.

Moana_Loa.jpg

[c1ue]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Instead of pointing to authority like Lord Monckton like you've just pulled a magic rabbit out of your hat, try taking the time to research an issue from the book and supporting that. How about his assertion that polar bears are just fine, thank you?! No problem here, move along...this bear's got more space than he knows what to do with..:rolleyes:

Monckton is just opposing Stearns - good old fashioned British Lords rivalry, though from what I've seen he isn't too far off the mark summarizing.

As for polar bears, perhaps the problem with the assertions are that:

1) While documented numbers of polar bears have increased, the arguments by the AGW folks are that previous numbers were suspect - ironically enough with the same arguments that AGWers use on those attacking temperature record 'deniers'. But if the previous numbers were suspect, why do they assume polar bear populations are declining? Maybe they're stable, maybe they're increasing, but the conclusion should be "we don't know and need more study" as opposed to "Eek save the poor polar bears via carbon taxation".

2) The 'threatened' status of polar bears is not due to any actual data, but on projected habitat loss due to global warming. Again, circular - if there's no ice, there can't be polar bears right? And there can't be ice if there's global warming? a priori at its best.

3) The great thing about these 'stranded polar bear' pictures is that somehow it is assumed polar bears can't swim. Well, even in the good old days, the ice would regularly melt in large swathes of the Arctic - if the polar bears couldn't swim then they'd be dead. Even the famous Al Gore polar bear pic was absolutely denied by its original photographer as being misused and out of context.

4) Under this AGW climate modeled habitat loss reasoning, seals also should be declared 'threatened'. If the polar bears can't hack it, neither can the seals. The seals need to breed on ice or dirt; the babies can't hack it in the cold water either.

But I don't see 'threatened' listings for the harp seal, bearded seal, the ringed seal, the hooded seal, or the harbor seal. Nor for the walrus.

If anything, the impact on the seals would be worse as the seals would be concentrated on the 'non-melt' remainder of Arctic solid surface with all the remaining (and soon to be very fat) polar bears.

5) Then there are the whales: there are 3 species of whales that frequent the Arctic shelf: bowhead, narwhal, and beluga.

The bowhead is a full endangered species. Not 'threatened', but 'going away' with about 8000 members left (vs. 25000+ polar bears). The purported melting of the Arctic shelf would greatly increase the open breathing spaces for the bowhead and thus increase its habitat.

Thus AGW is good no? Bring one endangered species back, but 'threaten' another.

6) I've posted previously on the exclusion of a 30 year Canadian polar bear researcher from a recent polar bear research get together on the basis of his 'Arctic warming, but not AGW' views.

Only the science matters, and on those the people you quote have no overrruling proof.

Unfortunately the behavior of those stalwarts behind the AGW movement hardly seems to be that "only the science matters".

Preventing access to data, demonizing/ostracizing those critical of their views, manipulating data sets, and worst of all being used by politicians; these all point towards something besides science.

[Diarmuid]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Maybe the ice is making a comeback but using this type of ancedotal evidence to suggest the climate might actually vary naturally is unscientific, I know


http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm

Data of Sea Ice Extent

The latest value : 5,985,156 km² (October 8, 2009)

Numeric data of sea ice extent in the Arctic Ocean (CSV file)

• Data from June 2002 to the present are included.
• The format is "month, day, year, extent (unit: square km)".
• Number "-9999" represents that we couldn't conduct the observation during the period for the reason that the satellite went into constrained operation mode or stand-by mode to avoid harmful effects by meteor showers and solar flares. 　
• When you use our data and graph, please follow our site policy.

Notes on the sea-ice extent data

Data period and format

• Numeric data of sea-ice extent in the Arctic Ocean from June 2002 to the present are contained in a CSV file. Please note that only the sea-ice pixels in the browse image are counted for estimating the values of sea-ice extent, and thus sea ice outside the image is not taken into account in this data.
• The format is "month, day, year, sea-ice extent (unit: square km)".
  　
• "-9999" indicates that we couldn't conduct the observation during the period because the satellite entered a constrained operation mode or stand-by mode to avoid harmful effects of meteor showers or solar flares.
  　

Method for calculating sea-ice extent

• The sea-ice extent is calculated as the areal sum of sea ice covering the ocean where sea-ice concentration (SIC) exceeds 15%. SIC data of JAXA’s AMSR-E standard products are used for this purpose (http://sharaku.eorc.jaxa.jp/AMSR/pro...df/alg_des.pdf). The algorithm for calculating SIC was developed and provided by Dr. Comiso of NASA GSFC through a cooperative relationship between NASA and JAXA.
• The black dot seen at the North Pole is an area lacking data where AMSR-E cannot observe the Earth’s surface due to the limit of its observational coverage (i.e., orbit inclination of 98deg. and swath width of 1600km). Please note that this area is also counted as sea-ice cover in our estimation of sea-ice extent. We may change the policy (i.e., filling the gap with full coverage of sea ice) in the near future due to the recent drastic reduction of Arctic sea ice. We will announce this if it is implemented.
  　
• The current version of data processing produces an erroneous blip of sea-ice extent on June 1 and October 15, which is seen in the graph of sea-ice extent as a small peak on these dates. The apparent blip arises due to switching of some parameters in the processing on those dates. The parameter switching is needed because the surface of the Arctic sea ice becomes wet in summer due to the melting of ice, drastically changing the satellite-observed signatures of sea ice. We will soon improve the processing to make the graph much smoother.
  　
• In principle, SIC data could have errors of 10% at most, particularly for the area of thin sea ice seen around the edge of sea-ice cover and melted sea ice seen in summer. Also, SIC along coastal lines could also have errors due to sub-pixel contamination of land cover in an instantaneous field of view of AMSR-E data.
  　

Averaging period and the update timing of daily data

• In general, sea-ice extent is defined as a temporal average of several days (e.g., five days) in order to eliminate calculation errors due to a lack of data (e.g., for traditional microwave sensors such as SMMR and SSM/I). However, we adopt the average of two days to achieve rapid data release. The wider spatial coverage of AMSR-E enables reducing the data-production period.
• Usually the latest value of daily sea-ice extent is fixed and updated at around 1 p.m. (4 a.m.) JST (UT). Before the value is fixed, we also assign a preliminary value of daily sea-ice extent several times (usually three to four times) as an early report, which is determined without the full two-day observation coverage. (The fixed values of sea-ice extent are determined with the full coverage of observation data.)
  　

Definition of sea-ice cover (extent and area)

• The area of sea-ice cover is often defined in two ways, i.e., sea-ice “extent” and sea-ice “area.” These multiple definitions of sea-ice cover may sometimes confuse data users. The former is defined as the areal sum of sea ice covering the ocean (sea ice + open ocean), whereas the latter “area” definition counts only sea ice covering a fraction of the ocean (sea ice only). Thus, the sea-ice extent is always larger than the sea-ice area. Because of the possible errors in SIC mentioned above, satellite-derived sea-ice concentration can be underestimated, particularly in summer. In such a case, the sea-ice area is more susceptible to errors than the sea-ice extent. Thus, we adopt the definition of sea-ice extent to monitor the variation of the Arctic sea ice on this site.