The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

[Slimprofits]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

This isn't the usual suspects of the environmental movement. It is just plain weird coming from Charles.

Methinks the environmental cause is being adopted by Western governments, which may slowly be starting to recognize the depths of this depression, in an effort to build a worldwide WPA. Undoing the harm done by an oil-based agriculture should employ about a billion people.


Because it's all about economics.

Prior to the election in 2008, the Republicans officially added climate change to their party platform.

[Roughneck]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Back in 1492 the leading "scientists" thought the earth was flat. They also thought the sun revolved around the earth. Science has gotten a lot wrong.Climate science is a perfect example.The "truth" is people are using this fear to achieve a political goal that would not otherwise be possible and THAT is the truth.

[MulaMan]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

I work for an engine manufacturer. What you say works in theory but doesn't work in practice. What happens in practice is consolidation and oligarchy.

I'm talking about something much more fundemental, your argument is based on the current capitalist system - the intent of my example was that you can change the system - for example you can change the definition of wealth.

Wealth is a relative measure and implies a social contract in that society decides how wealth is defined and accumulated - how much US dollars you have, what resources back US dollars or gold or not, ...

It could be decided that wealth is based on whomever can run for the longest time, and all the lands resources are divided up based on that measure, and so then everyone spends thier time running and training. Competing to grow the most healthly organic foods and understing how to maximize a humans running ability in order to become a rich capitalist.

The entire social contract we have around "capitalism" can change and it can still be "capitalism", that was my point.

There are many possible forms of capitalism, we often get stuck in thinking the American (carbon based) form is the only option and so environmentalism (anti-carbon use) must always be against capitalism and so must be one of the others (socialist or communist) - this is simply not true.

[WildspitzE]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

There are so many variations on socialism, captialism, communism, that any word with an 'ism seems to automatically convey the writer has a biased view.

There are also definitions that those "variations" are based off of. Did you read who the author is?

As discussed ad nauseam, my view is that capitalism has been long dead and buried, about a century ago.

The point of the interest in the article lies behind the intent of his statements, and the intent of those seeking to accommodate a world view (that is hinged on control) onto something else.

The other probem is the simple idea that there are straight lines between communism to socialism to capitalism - however, we live in a 3D world.

hahaha no way, 3D?!

In our current system, wealth is alligned with those that can monotize carbon the fastest and mostest.

Say you had a "capatilist system in which money is based on carbon offsets and in this system, wealth is aligned with a reduction in carbon so the entire population competes to reduce greenhouse gas and obtains as much wealth as possible.

Welcome to LaLa Land. Please put the Kool-aid down.

[WildspitzE]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

I'm talking about something much more fundemental, your argument is based on the current capitalist system - the intent of my example was that you can change the system - for example you can change the definition of wealth.

Wealth is a relative measure and implies a social contract in that society decides how wealth is defined and accumulated - how much US dollars you have, what resources back US dollars or gold or not, ...

Ah, what it seems that you're attempting to re-define is money.

Wealth is standard of living. Simple as that.

(... great, now I get to hear how this will increase our standard of living and thus wealth! oh boy)

[MulaMan]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Back in 1492 the leading "scientists" thought the earth was flat. They also thought the sun revolved around the earth. Science has gotten a lot wrong.Climate science is a perfect example.The "truth" is people are using this fear to achieve a political goal that would not otherwise be possible and THAT is the truth.

"Recent scholarship, particularly since the 1990s, has shown that with extraordinarily few exceptions "no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat"

The ancient Greeks even believed the earth was round.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

The "flat earth" people are ignorant, always have been. Not scientists. Often a result of religious & political cults where people cannot process common sense ideas (example: concepts of heaven and hell conflicting with natural laws or Fox News "scientists" always slamming climate change).

I guess "THAT" is not the truth. LOL

[MulaMan]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Ah, what it seems that you're attempting to re-define is money.

Wealth is standard of living. Simple as that.

Wealth NOT Money. and yes it is because of the redefinition of Wealth that allows for a win-win increase in "standard of living" across an entire society.

Hence, the solution to many of our current economic and social issues lie in the re-definition of "Wealth".

Wealth is not as easily defined as you think, has changed in the past, and will change in the future.

"The term implies a social contract on establishing and maintaining ownership in relation to such items which can be invoked with little or no effort and expense on the part of the owner."

"This comparative wealth across time is also applicable to the future; given this trend of human advancement, it is likely that the standard of living that the wealthiest today enjoy will be considered rude poverty by future generations."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth

Much of today's wealth is based on extraction and processing of carbon, in the future that may not be that case.

[WildspitzE]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Wealth NOT Money. and yes it is because of the redefinition of Wealth that allows for a win-win increase in "standard of living" across an entire society.

Hence, the solution to many of our current economic and social issues lie in the re-definition of "Wealth".

Wealth is not as easily defined as you think, has changed in the past, and will change in the future.

"The term implies a social contract on establishing and maintaining ownership in relation to such items which can be invoked with little or no effort and expense on the part of the owner."

"This comparative wealth across time is also applicable to the future; given this trend of human advancement, it is likely that the standard of living that the wealthiest today enjoy will be considered rude poverty by future generations."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth

Much of today's wealth is based on extraction and processing of carbon, in the future that may not be that case.

Ok, you go on and play the re-defining game.

[rj1]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

I'll move the family to an isolated part of the world: Australian outback, Patagonia, Wyoming, ... and then think about you with your gun in New York City.

F*ck New York City. The new capital of the newly-proclaimed Eastern Kingdom of the Two Carolinas will be Charleston. All surrounding states will be made subservient under a feudal system. Charleston will become the most powerful city in the Western Hemisphere. We can take care of all of California's financial problems with a missile targeted to hit San Francisco. HAHAHAHA!

[Starving Steve]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Okay, what if we forget climate change and dicuss peak oil? EJ has definitely taken a stand on this, calling it the "end of cheap peak oil." Therefore, moving to alternative energy might make sense from an economic perspective, depending on its cost. One of the best primers on the relationship between three major systems: energy, materials, and the economy is the Crash Course by Chris Martenson.

Chris introduces the concept of "Net Energy," the discretionary energy left over from producing our energy supply and which provides us with our standard of living. As the cost of discovering and producing energy goes up, our standard of living goes down. This is true of alternative energy as well.

The larger question is how are humans going to live on this planet of finite resources and limits? Can we envision a system where business earns profit, people prosper, we live a better life than we do today, and live within the means of the bio-capacity of the planet?

Cynthia

So you would get rid of the oil and gas industry that has brought some bits of prosperity to Alberta and some hope for Newfoundland? You would tell the workers to go home to wherever they came from, because they use too much net-energy to drill and upgrade heavy oil, and too much net-energy to ship that oil and gas to markets?

And you don't want nuclear power either, because that takes some net-energy to obtain the uranium in Saskatchewan, or some energy expenditure in dis-arming atomic weapons and harvesting-back the uranium?

You would rather mankind take a drop in its standard of living and people go without work and affordable energy to enjoy life with..... and all so that the environment can be saved from carbon-dioxide, or roads, people travelling about in vehicles, cities developing, skyscrapers being built, etc?

I thought the Republicans were horrible in the American South, but the radical environmentalists now in America, Canada, Britain, and Europe are even worse. Maybe 10X worse!

[flintlock]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

I believe the global warming alarmists are primarily concerned about carbon dioxide. It's a little sensationalistic to call that an "industrial biproduct" [sic]. Everyone agrees that we can't pump unlimited amounts of industrial byproducts into the air and consquently those are already controlled under the various Clean Air Acts. Not everyone agrees that human-generated carbon dioxide is warming, er, changing the climate.

That's my take on this subject. Everyone knows we are polluting like hell. But doggone it, they have to find a way to make a buck off this stuff, so let them have their "global warming", (cough)I mean "climate change", or whatever other name it will take in order to gain control of the world. This is bs people. If they really wanted to stop polluting they'd focus on limiting growth, not the constant growth they desire to feed the corporate monster. You can have six billion people. You can have cars and central air conditioned homes. But you cannot have six billion people all driving cars and living in AC homes with a bizillion electrical gadgets running non-stop.

[MulaMan]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

You can have six billion people. You can have cars and central air conditioned homes. But you cannot have six billion people all driving cars and living in AC homes with a bizillion electrical gadgets running non-stop.

I agree, and can only see 3 possible solutions?

1. Reduce the population: Human War, Plague (H1N1), Meteorite, Climate Change.

2. Technical Innovation along with changes to basic social constructs (the meaning of Wealth)

3. Combination of 1 and 2.

[MulaMan]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Prior to the election in 2008, the Republicans officially added climate change to their party platform.

Even more wierd: Sarah Palin writing for the Washington Post about Cap & Trade :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

or is she cashing in the chips with Exxon?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...071302852.html

I'm going out to get liquered up before I see Sarah Palin as a Fox News analyst slamming those "climate change alarmists" and "elite scientists"

[MulaMan]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Ok, you go on and play the re-defining game.

What exactly am I re-defining? and why not just try to pose a logical argument if you don't agree with what I say?

I educated you by sourcing a more accurate definition of wealth then your simplistic one of "standard of living". Took me 3 seconds on Wikipedia.

I further educated you that wealth is a social construct - it does not just mean "how much money you have".

I then re-stated my idea that "wealth", as a social construct, will get re-defined in the future, as it has in the past, and that this is a way to solve many of our current issues.

[Guinnesstime]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Why don't we just engineer biomass plants to store large amounts of carbon in their lignin. Then everyone will be happy because trees will be planted and CO2 will be reduced in the environment. No more global warming and CO2 will be released at a much slower "manageable" rate.