The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

[Raz]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

It would appear that the itulip system does not understand the full range of meaning for some English words. If you pull back the hammer on the firing mechanism of a gun to a point described as half ****, there is always the possibility that it might discharge the gun unexpectedly. Thus well known as half ****. But there you go... who am I to teach an American the English language.

Well put, Chris.

After all, we "park in our driveways" and "drive on our parkways" !

[doom&gloom]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Is Prince Charles the new Goreacle of (no longer so Great) Britian?

Whew! We are saved. :rolleyes:

[rjwjr]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Why do climate change threads keep appearing on the iTulip forum? I haven't seen a thread or opinion from EJ or Fred(s) on this issue so I don't understand why it is such a popular topic here. Does the same person keep initiating them?

Oh well, as far as my own opinion, I am quite skeptical. The best analysis thus far, at least to my liking, is by none other than well-known author Michael Crichton. Here's a link to a speech he gave on the topic. It's worth a read as I believe him when he says he has no hidden agenda on the topic and is only looking for the truth of the matter.

Here's but one small sample..."Politics leads you in the direction of a belief. Data, if you follow them, lead you to truth."

It's a little lengthy, but he peppers it with a few humorous (although quite subtle) comments. Enjoy...

http://www.crichton-official.com/spe...talfuture.html

[rjwjr]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

metalman's version...

not to be confused with a rooster or...

Are you sure that's an example of half-cocked? An emergency room picture of John Bobbitt may be more representative, albeit likely a cause for banishment from the site.

[fliped42]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Why do climate change threads keep appearing on the iTulip forum? I haven't seen a thread or opinion from EJ or Fred(s) on this issue so I don't understand why it is such a popular topic here. Does the same person keep initiating them?

Oh well, as far as my own opinion, I am quite skeptical. The best analysis thus far, at least to my liking, is by none other than well-known author Michael Crichton. Here's a link to a speech he gave on the topic. It's worth a read as I believe him when he says he has no hidden agenda on the topic and is only looking for the truth of the matter.

Here's but one small sample..."Politics leads you in the direction of a belief. Data, if you follow them, lead you to truth."

It's a little lengthy, but he peppers it with a few humorous (although quite subtle) comments. Enjoy...

http://www.crichton-official.com/spe...talfuture.html

I think it is because a huge Global Political system which is going to redistribute wealth from developed countries to undeveloped countries is gaining alot of steam. A Global tax system is being pushed and it will change the investment landscape.

http://www.climatedepot.com/a/1893/G...bal-Governance

At least the people in the forefront of this movement are showing their true intentions. They are going to tax you on a global level and then they will redistribute the wealth how they see fit. I have even seen proposals that they are going to tax people based upon their wealth (As the wealthy have bigger houses, more cars and fly more often.) Once it is in place you will not be able to turn back. No matter how you fall on the science the fact is they are closer now then ever in getting this done. They are attacking the cheap energy (coal) so to make the more expensive energy (Solar and Wind) more competitive. This has huge economic consequences. They are doing this now because "you should never waste a good crisis"

[Starving Steve]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

The Pacific is going into El Nino again. Surface sea temperatures in the eastern Pacific are beginning to warm-up, and SSTs in the western Pacific are beginning to cool down.

For the eastern Pacific, odds are this means more rain in winter in California, because Pacific storms are more potent. Mean temperatures at climate stations also tend to go above normal, especially in winter.

The El Nino brings some rain to portions of the Atacama Desert in South America. Central America gets wetter.

The El Nino brings later monsoon rain and less rain in the western Pacific and in the eastern Indian Ocean basin. India and China will have such conditions. Odds are that Australia will be cooler and dryer than normal, too.

During the El Nino, hurricanes tend to be stronger than usual and more frequent than usual in the eastern Pacific, while hurricanes tend to be weaker than usual and less frequent than usual in the western Pacific.

As SSTs warm with the El Nino, the month of June at the Honolulu Int'l Airport was 1.4 degrees F. above normal. San Francisco Int'l Airport recorded a 1.5 degree F. above normal June mean temperature.

The Earth will return to La Nina conditions around 2014 or 2015. And little more than that can be said, regardless of what Prince Charles might say.:rolleyes:

[bpr]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Backed by a diverse range of leading organisations such as Unesco, the World Bank, the US army and the Rockefeller Foundation, the 2009 State of the Future report runs to 6,700 pages and draws on contributions from 2,700 experts around the globe.

This isn't the usual suspects of the environmental movement. It is just plain weird coming from Charles.

Methinks the environmental cause is being adopted by Western governments, which may slowly be starting to recognize the depths of this depression, in an effort to build a worldwide WPA. Undoing the harm done by an oil-based agriculture should employ about a billion people.

Why do climate change threads keep appearing on the iTulip forum?

Because it's all about economics.

[Cynthia]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Okay, what if we forget climate change and dicuss peak oil? EJ has definitely taken a stand on this, calling it the "end of cheap peak oil." Therefore, moving to alternative energy might make sense from an economic perspective, depending on its cost. One of the best primers on the relationship between three major systems: energy, materials, and the economy is the Crash Course by Chris Martenson.

Chris introduces the concept of "Net Energy," the discretionary energy left over from producing our energy supply and which provides us with our standard of living. As the cost of discovering and producing energy goes up, our standard of living goes down. This is true of alternative energy as well.

The larger question is how are humans going to live on this planet of finite resources and limits? Can we envision a system where business earns profit, people prosper, we live a better life than we do today, and live within the means of the bio-capacity of the planet?

Cynthia

[WildspitzE]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Does anybody have access to this article?

Robert Heilbroner, Reflections, “AFTER COMMUNISM,” The New Yorker, September 10, 1990, p. 91
Read the full text of this article. (Registration required.)






ABSTRACT: REFLECTIONS about the collapse of Communism in the Soviet Union, and the possible nature of the economic system that will ultimately replace it. The Soviet economic system deteriorated to a point far beyond the worst crisis ever experienced by capitalism; the villain in this deterioration was the central planning system. It has long been dogged by a system of pricing that led to gross misallocations of effort. From what we know now about how anarchic the planning process was, the wonder is that the Soviet economy went on as long as it did. The C.I.A. concluded that the Soviet G.N.P. is today between one-half and one-third as high as that of the U.S. The aim of perestroika is the radical curtailment of central planning. But the restructuring thus far is small and incomplete. A rapid switchover would cause massive unemployment and inflation. It is impossible to be hopeful about a rapid improvement in the Soviet economy (things are very different in the liberated Eastern European nations). The direction in which things are headed is some version of capitalism, whatever its title. In Eastern Europe, the new system is referred to as Not Socialism. Socialism may not continue as an important force now that Communism is finished. But another way of looking at socialism is as the society that must emerge if humanity is to cope with the ecological burden that economic growth is placing on the environment. From this perspective, the long vista after Communism leads through capitalism into a still unexplored world that roust be safely attained and settled before it can be named.

________

More on the author: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Heilbroner

Interesting quotes from Wiki:

"
Though an outspoken socialist for nearly his entire career, Heilbroner famously wrote in a 1989 New Yorker article:

Less than 75 years after it officially began, the contest between capitalism and socialism is over: capitalism has won...Capitalism organizes the material affairs of humankind more satisfactorily than socialism.[1]

He further explained in Dissent in 1992 that "capitalism has been as unmistakable a success as socialism has been a failure"[2] and complimented Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek, and Ludwig von Mises on their insistence of the free market's superiority. He emphasized that "democratic liberties have not yet appeared, except fleetingly, in any nation that has declared itself to be fundamentally anticapitalist."[3]"

[MulaMan]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

I believe nature will solve the problem either way. Because many humans believe in God they think we are somehow outside of natural systems.

1. U.S. Energy Secretary says painting all roofs white is the equivalent of parking all our cars for 11 years! Some cities already require industrial buildings to have white rooftops. I like this guy, finanly a non-Exxon lobbyist in charge of Energy.

http://www.caymanmama.com/2009/05/27...905274700.html

2. New study finds H1N1 strain resembles 1918 swine flu. I personally believe that mother nature will find a way to reduce the human population by at least 1/2 - unless we start a war and help her out.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31889365...lth-swine_flu/

[santafe2]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

WTF does he know? He's a scientist now?

No, he's a calculator...:rolleyes:

[rj1]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

The Climate Change Cult seems to keep ratcheting up the hysteria, the more people keep ignoring them.

Yup. On the bright side, I'll buy myself a gun, that way I can ensure my side of civilization lives on. All the pussies will die. You can't say that's wrong. I can save the planet. Mass genocide of 5 billion will ensure our planet can live healthily for a long time for the remaining 1 billion of us. Consider this the 2009 version of Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal.

[MulaMan]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

But another way of looking at socialism is as the society that must emerge if humanity is to cope with the ecological burden that economic growth is placing on the environment. From this perspective, the long vista after Communism leads through capitalism into a still unexplored world that roust be safely attained and settled before it can be named.

There are so many variations on socialism, captialism, communism, that any word with an 'ism seems to automatically convey the writer has a biased view.

The other probem is the simple idea that there are straight lines between communism to socialism to capitalism - however, we live in a 3D world.

In our current system, wealth is alligned with those that can monotize carbon the fastest and mostest.

Say you had a "capatilist system in which money is based on carbon offsets and in this system, wealth is aligned with a reduction in carbon so the entire population competes to reduce greenhouse gas and obtains as much wealth as possible.

[MulaMan]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Yup. On the bright side, I'll buy myself a gun, that way I can ensure my side of civilization lives on. All the pussies will die. You can't say that's wrong. I can save the planet. Mass genocide of 5 billion will ensure our planet can live healthily for a long time for the remaining 1 billion of us. Consider this the 2009 version of Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal.

I'll move the family to an isolated part of the world: Australian outback, Patagonia, Wyoming, ... and then think about you with your gun in New York City.

[rj1]

Re: The planet's future: Climate change 'will cause civilisation to collapse'

Say you had a "capatilist system in which money is based on carbon offsets and in this system, wealth is aligned with a reduction in carbon so the entire population competes to reduce greenhouse gas and obtains as much wealth as possible.

I work for an engine manufacturer. What you say works in theory but doesn't work in practice. What happens in practice is consolidation and oligarchy.

Let's say emissions limits for an engine are set at a certain level (everything I lay out here is what has actually happened), some manufacturers would not be able to meet it and would be forced out of business because they don't have the money, knowledge, and/or technology to meet the limit. Then 3 years more down the road, the emissions go tighter and more companies cannot meet the new limit again. Some give up making engines and have to buy from other companies. Then 3 years later, it happens again. It will then come to a point where you only have 1 or 2 companies in the market and they will have all the wealth perpetually unless someone buys them out, but they would just as oligarchic. It is not possible for new players to come into the market because the initial overhead cost outlay to gain back all the years lost in development, knowledge, and technology is too high. And they can't release brand new engines over emissions because they have to pay a set fine per engine that's large enough to hurt. So what it leaves you with is an oligarchy and the entire market is dependent on one or two companies eventually. There is no such thing as competition in this case. My company right now has market segments where we have 100% market share because all our competitors left and with no one to potentially challenge us.