Tweet
I want to create this thread to respond to the debate among some members and myself regarding issues of China(http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...t=10706&page=3). I feel it is important to express my point of view, as I believe most of you are members from western countries, and I believe this would help to enhance the mutual understandings between us. For better or worse, I will speak. I understand this board is about economy and finance, but politics is never far from these fields. Marx said:"economy foundation determines the upper structure"(I am not sure if that is the correction Engilsh version, since I learned that in Chinese). But if Fred wants to move it somewhere. Go ahead.
Please note that this is my personal experience, and I strongly believe it reflects to a high degree the thinking of an average Chinese. For critics out there, please fire away after you read the whole article. I reserve the right to respond or not to resond.
Pythoniccow and santafe2, thanks for your comforting words.
When I see comments like:"As it stands today in many places the Chinese are in a foreign land and they don't speak the language. Furthermore it seems that they are making no attempt to assimilate themselves into local society or respect local customs. Yet they don't understand why their hosts are hostile", I could sense this kind of attitude will cause people say:"why don't the little yellow people go back to their own country" and so and so if things go very bad.
I realized that by saying "typical westerner", it was kind of generalization on my part. However, while most of your guys here are a wise bunch, I can't say that for most of North Americans I encountered on my daily life or on the internet regarding issues of "third world" countries. Not that they are intellectually compromised, but they fall for the spell of western mass media propoganda.
They could not comprehend why Ahmadinejad could win the election in Iran. How could this Islamic extremetist, evil man who wants Israel "wipe off the map"(actually He was misquote by the western media propoganda machine: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...xt=va&aid=4527), American's enemy number one(or two) win the support of majority of Iranian people? CNN ran 7x24 news reports alleging "election fraud", yet failed to provide any concrete evidence for the allegation.
They could not comprehend why Hamas could wind the election in Gaza Strip. They are the terrorists, for God's Sake! Are Gaza people all terrorists?
The could not comprehend the communists in Red China would have the support of the majority of people in China. Anyone mentioning the fact are called "ChiCom apologist", or they must be paid by the the communist government.
But I could understand all these.
Theres is a thing called nationalism, in other words, the collective urge of a people to protect or advance their interest(territorial, property, etc.).
Given the behavior of the "coalition of willing" in the middle east, Is it any surprise the hardliners like Ahmadinejad who would stand up to the west and protect the intrest of Iranian people would have the support of the majority?
Given the aggression of Israel in Gaza Strip, is it any surprise that the political group who would fight with their blood and tears for their people would have the support of the majority?
For China, where the "coalition of willing" roamed free since the late 19th Century, nationalism plays even larger part int he culture and politics. Do you know it was like in China before 1950? Soldiers, merchants, missionaries, tourists of major western powers were above law and enjoyed first class treatment. The Chinese people was second class citizens on their own land(do I hear Iraq again?).
Heard of Mao ZeTong? In the west, he is portraited as half evil half iron fist dictator. Yet after more than 30 years of his death, in today's China, he is like a semi-God figure. If you go to China some day, pay attention to the streets and shops, and his pictures and figurates are everywhere. You hop into a taxi, quite frequently, you will see his picture hanging down from the rear-view mirror, staring at you smiling. You ask the driver why he is there. The driver then tells you:"Oh, he will protect me. Make me safe".
Why? You are shocked and mystified.
Ever heard of the Amethyst Incident in 1949, in the misdt of China's civil war? The Amethyst, the battleship of the ever powerful British Empire Navy, when "patrolling " at the water of Yangze River they had done in the longest time as if on their on territory, were bombed and almost destroy by the PLA army. The British were shocked and awaken to a new reality -- their free ride in China had ended, and they were facing a Chinese troop that would stand up to challenge the western powers -- the first in almost a century. The British was the first western power to establish foreign relationship with China in 1950.
That was what Mao ZeTong meant when he declared:"The Chiese people have stood up from now on", on Oct. 01/1949 at Tiananmen Square of Beijing, when his troops had taken most part of China and simultaneously nullified all unfair treaties the western powers forced upon the chinese people.
Ever heard of the "People's Volunteer Army Song"? Sorry I don't have the lyric but here is a YouTube posting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAp13...eature=related
Yes, Down with the American imperalist! Young and enthusiastic, their hearts swell with national pride, one million "People's Volunteer Army" crossed the Korean border in October/1950. Caring primitive weaponary, very limited air cover, and a few tanks, they were up against the "coalition of willing", and the powerful Americans. What were they thinking? Did they know that the Allies defeated the Germany Army, who considered to be the most formidable army in the world? Did they know that the Americans had the most advanced military system and weapons? Did they know that the "leader of the free world" had the most powerful economy and industrial capability?
It did'nt matter. They surged ahead, fought with courage and skill. In Campaign I, II, and III, they pushed the allies to the southern tip of Korean peninsula. In Campaign IV and V, the allies pushed the Chinese back to the 38 parrallel. And for another two years, both sides would fight at this thin line without much success, with hundred of thousands casualties. Finally, realizing no one could claim victory, both sides sit down to sign the ceasefire treaty.
The Chinese people were esctatic. The "King of Far East", General McArthur was fired. The number one super power was stopped at out gate. The day that a mere 10,000 western troops would chase our emperor out of the Forbidden City forever gone.
My father was one among the million soldiers. When I go back to China to see him, the image of him singing the "People's Volunteer Army Song" to me when I was a little kid, would bring tears to my eyes. (I read that ituliper ASH's father lost his leg in this war. I have to say, it could not possibly my father did it, because he stationed at the border only, he never faced a "American devil" in his entire army life
)
Chairman Mao fought more battles in later years. In November of 1962, war with india for the disputed territory of Southern Tibet. In March of 1969, there was the Damansky Island military conflict with the Soviet Union (Oh, yes. Commies do not always get along).
Mao was fiece and fearless. That is why despite all his horrendous mistakes, he is still an unquestionable hero in the heart of Chinese people.
See the pattern here? Mao and the "ChiComs" fought for the territorial rights of the people and the sovereignty of China. So I am telling you that the "ChiComs" are having the support of the majority, for the things they did for the people.
Remember the 1999 NATO's bombing of China's Embassy Yoguslavia? Chinese students basically attacked every US Embassy and consulates in China for revenge?
Remember in 1996, when the Taiwan Straight tension heightened, US sent two air carrier battle groups there? The Chinese people, especially among the young, vouched to destroy the US air carrier. Internet message boards, the words of "Down with the American imperalist" were everywhere. It was the government itself who dampened the escalating sentiment, because they knew short of full-out nuclear war, they did not have the ability to attack the air carrier group at that time.
Remember last year, during the Tibetan riot, when Pelosi, your beloved speaker of the house, went to the south lope of Himalaya showing support for the "demonstrators"? Chinese international students and residents in major cities around the world took to the streets to protest the western media and government for interfering in their interna affair.
Please see these links, and see for yourself.
http://vol-news.com/olympicTorch.php
http://vol-news.com/demonstration/australia.php
http://vol-news.com/demonstration/canada.php
http://vol-news.com/demonstration/england.php
http://vol-news.com/demonstration/zealand.php
http://vol-news.com/demonstration/us.php
http://vol-news.com/demonstration/london%204-19.php
http://vol-news.com/demonstration/paris%204-19.php
You may say: well, they are manipulated and controlled by the "ChiComs", and they are the acts of communist hardliners.
I will tell you right here: the hardliners are among the people. Whichever political force responds to the people's needs and fight for them, they will have the support, like Mao and the "ChiComs". Whoever are perceived weak and catering to the outside interest, will be tossed out, like the National Party now ruling in Taiwan, the Republic of China. Why the "ChiComs" named the country "The People's Republic of China"? Confusing, eh? They are not trying to play word game with your guys. They really want to emphasize that they have the people's interest in mind.
Still doubting?
There are literally hundred of thousands of Chinese international students studying in universities and colleges in every western county. They work hard. They are mostly a quiet and shy group.But if you venture and talk to them, you will be amazed at how they think about their country and government. If you ask them if they would go back to China after graduation. They most likely will say: YES.
So I tell you, nationalism is the mainstream in China, where essentially no single person including those in power believe in communism. Don't be a raging bull, which invariably charges at the wrong target whenever the western media and politicians waving the "communism" red flag. For those really care for the democracy and freedom in China, go to the grass root, show your care to the mass. Stirring ethnic tension and encouraging riots, like the CIA and others are doing, will not get you anywhere. That will only cause the nationalism and patriotic sentiment surging higher among the Chinese people, and strengthen their support for the government.
Why the political strategists in the west fail to see this? This question, I believe is the essence of the so-call democracy and freedom. It is all smoke and mirrors. Politicians and governments of the west have every bit of geopolitical interest in mind, so riots and tensions are the preferred methods. Who cares about the real interest of the people in third-world countries?
Now I have my say. Take it or ignore it, at your own risk.
Before I finish, I would like to touch on the topic of Tibet. As I mentioned in another thread, the western media like to say:"The communist troops of China entered Tibet in 1950", "Mao ZeTong sent troops to Tibet in 1950", or other variety of flavours, whenever they are on the issues concerning Tibet.
This is a very clever propoganda trick, for this statement on itself is true, but it does not tell the whole story. It creates an impression in the general western public that the "ChiCom" invaded Tibet in 1950. In fact before that time, Tibet was under the ruling of National Party's Republic of China, now situates in Taiwan. During the civil war, when the National government was overthrown, the Communist, of course were sending troops to occupy all territories under the ruling of previos government. So the above statement is as true as saying:"the Communist troops of China entered GuangDong province 1949", or "Mao sent his troops to Hainan Island in 1950". The communist troops had every right enter Tibet, for it was part of China before 1950.
Here I want to show you some evidence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LA2-NSRW-1-0148.jpg
This is a map of Republic of China printed by Rand McNally & Co. in the year 1914. It clearly shows Tibet was part of China.
http://www.1847usa.com/identify/YearSets/1942.htm
http://vol-news.com/tibet%20history/...efore_1950.php
US stamp in 1942. At left, is the President ABRAHAM LINCON of USA; at right, is the first Chinese President of Republic of China, Shun Zhongshan(Sun Yat-sen). At that time, China and US were allies to fight against the Japanese. The map on the stamp includes Tibet.
http://vol-news.com/tibet%20history/...efore_1950.php
(Last picture at linked page)Indian Map by V. & K. Publishing Co. that illustrates the India territory from 1700-1792 (Qing Dynasty of China). One can clearly see that XiZang (Tibet) was part of China.
Also see these references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IG...909reduced.jpg
OK, case closed. You might not change your mind on this issue, and continue to fall for the Brad Pitt, Richard Gee Hollywood dramatized fantacy about Tibet, but at least have some facts in mind when you entering a debate.
Have a good weekend.
Please note that this is my personal experience, and I strongly believe it reflects to a high degree the thinking of an average Chinese. For critics out there, please fire away after you read the whole article. I reserve the right to respond or not to resond.
Pythoniccow and santafe2, thanks for your comforting words.
When I see comments like:"As it stands today in many places the Chinese are in a foreign land and they don't speak the language. Furthermore it seems that they are making no attempt to assimilate themselves into local society or respect local customs. Yet they don't understand why their hosts are hostile", I could sense this kind of attitude will cause people say:"why don't the little yellow people go back to their own country" and so and so if things go very bad.
I realized that by saying "typical westerner", it was kind of generalization on my part. However, while most of your guys here are a wise bunch, I can't say that for most of North Americans I encountered on my daily life or on the internet regarding issues of "third world" countries. Not that they are intellectually compromised, but they fall for the spell of western mass media propoganda.
They could not comprehend why Ahmadinejad could win the election in Iran. How could this Islamic extremetist, evil man who wants Israel "wipe off the map"(actually He was misquote by the western media propoganda machine: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...xt=va&aid=4527), American's enemy number one(or two) win the support of majority of Iranian people? CNN ran 7x24 news reports alleging "election fraud", yet failed to provide any concrete evidence for the allegation.
They could not comprehend why Hamas could wind the election in Gaza Strip. They are the terrorists, for God's Sake! Are Gaza people all terrorists?
The could not comprehend the communists in Red China would have the support of the majority of people in China. Anyone mentioning the fact are called "ChiCom apologist", or they must be paid by the the communist government.
But I could understand all these.
Theres is a thing called nationalism, in other words, the collective urge of a people to protect or advance their interest(territorial, property, etc.).
Given the behavior of the "coalition of willing" in the middle east, Is it any surprise the hardliners like Ahmadinejad who would stand up to the west and protect the intrest of Iranian people would have the support of the majority?
Given the aggression of Israel in Gaza Strip, is it any surprise that the political group who would fight with their blood and tears for their people would have the support of the majority?
For China, where the "coalition of willing" roamed free since the late 19th Century, nationalism plays even larger part int he culture and politics. Do you know it was like in China before 1950? Soldiers, merchants, missionaries, tourists of major western powers were above law and enjoyed first class treatment. The Chinese people was second class citizens on their own land(do I hear Iraq again?).
Heard of Mao ZeTong? In the west, he is portraited as half evil half iron fist dictator. Yet after more than 30 years of his death, in today's China, he is like a semi-God figure. If you go to China some day, pay attention to the streets and shops, and his pictures and figurates are everywhere. You hop into a taxi, quite frequently, you will see his picture hanging down from the rear-view mirror, staring at you smiling. You ask the driver why he is there. The driver then tells you:"Oh, he will protect me. Make me safe".
Why? You are shocked and mystified.
Ever heard of the Amethyst Incident in 1949, in the misdt of China's civil war? The Amethyst, the battleship of the ever powerful British Empire Navy, when "patrolling " at the water of Yangze River they had done in the longest time as if on their on territory, were bombed and almost destroy by the PLA army. The British were shocked and awaken to a new reality -- their free ride in China had ended, and they were facing a Chinese troop that would stand up to challenge the western powers -- the first in almost a century. The British was the first western power to establish foreign relationship with China in 1950.
That was what Mao ZeTong meant when he declared:"The Chiese people have stood up from now on", on Oct. 01/1949 at Tiananmen Square of Beijing, when his troops had taken most part of China and simultaneously nullified all unfair treaties the western powers forced upon the chinese people.
Ever heard of the "People's Volunteer Army Song"? Sorry I don't have the lyric but here is a YouTube posting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAp13...eature=related
Yes, Down with the American imperalist! Young and enthusiastic, their hearts swell with national pride, one million "People's Volunteer Army" crossed the Korean border in October/1950. Caring primitive weaponary, very limited air cover, and a few tanks, they were up against the "coalition of willing", and the powerful Americans. What were they thinking? Did they know that the Allies defeated the Germany Army, who considered to be the most formidable army in the world? Did they know that the Americans had the most advanced military system and weapons? Did they know that the "leader of the free world" had the most powerful economy and industrial capability?
It did'nt matter. They surged ahead, fought with courage and skill. In Campaign I, II, and III, they pushed the allies to the southern tip of Korean peninsula. In Campaign IV and V, the allies pushed the Chinese back to the 38 parrallel. And for another two years, both sides would fight at this thin line without much success, with hundred of thousands casualties. Finally, realizing no one could claim victory, both sides sit down to sign the ceasefire treaty.
The Chinese people were esctatic. The "King of Far East", General McArthur was fired. The number one super power was stopped at out gate. The day that a mere 10,000 western troops would chase our emperor out of the Forbidden City forever gone.
My father was one among the million soldiers. When I go back to China to see him, the image of him singing the "People's Volunteer Army Song" to me when I was a little kid, would bring tears to my eyes. (I read that ituliper ASH's father lost his leg in this war. I have to say, it could not possibly my father did it, because he stationed at the border only, he never faced a "American devil" in his entire army life
)Chairman Mao fought more battles in later years. In November of 1962, war with india for the disputed territory of Southern Tibet. In March of 1969, there was the Damansky Island military conflict with the Soviet Union (Oh, yes. Commies do not always get along).
Mao was fiece and fearless. That is why despite all his horrendous mistakes, he is still an unquestionable hero in the heart of Chinese people.
See the pattern here? Mao and the "ChiComs" fought for the territorial rights of the people and the sovereignty of China. So I am telling you that the "ChiComs" are having the support of the majority, for the things they did for the people.
Remember the 1999 NATO's bombing of China's Embassy Yoguslavia? Chinese students basically attacked every US Embassy and consulates in China for revenge?
Remember in 1996, when the Taiwan Straight tension heightened, US sent two air carrier battle groups there? The Chinese people, especially among the young, vouched to destroy the US air carrier. Internet message boards, the words of "Down with the American imperalist" were everywhere. It was the government itself who dampened the escalating sentiment, because they knew short of full-out nuclear war, they did not have the ability to attack the air carrier group at that time.
Remember last year, during the Tibetan riot, when Pelosi, your beloved speaker of the house, went to the south lope of Himalaya showing support for the "demonstrators"? Chinese international students and residents in major cities around the world took to the streets to protest the western media and government for interfering in their interna affair.
Please see these links, and see for yourself.
http://vol-news.com/olympicTorch.php
http://vol-news.com/demonstration/australia.php
http://vol-news.com/demonstration/canada.php
http://vol-news.com/demonstration/england.php
http://vol-news.com/demonstration/zealand.php
http://vol-news.com/demonstration/us.php
http://vol-news.com/demonstration/london%204-19.php
http://vol-news.com/demonstration/paris%204-19.php
You may say: well, they are manipulated and controlled by the "ChiComs", and they are the acts of communist hardliners.
I will tell you right here: the hardliners are among the people. Whichever political force responds to the people's needs and fight for them, they will have the support, like Mao and the "ChiComs". Whoever are perceived weak and catering to the outside interest, will be tossed out, like the National Party now ruling in Taiwan, the Republic of China. Why the "ChiComs" named the country "The People's Republic of China"? Confusing, eh? They are not trying to play word game with your guys. They really want to emphasize that they have the people's interest in mind.
Still doubting?
There are literally hundred of thousands of Chinese international students studying in universities and colleges in every western county. They work hard. They are mostly a quiet and shy group.But if you venture and talk to them, you will be amazed at how they think about their country and government. If you ask them if they would go back to China after graduation. They most likely will say: YES.
So I tell you, nationalism is the mainstream in China, where essentially no single person including those in power believe in communism. Don't be a raging bull, which invariably charges at the wrong target whenever the western media and politicians waving the "communism" red flag. For those really care for the democracy and freedom in China, go to the grass root, show your care to the mass. Stirring ethnic tension and encouraging riots, like the CIA and others are doing, will not get you anywhere. That will only cause the nationalism and patriotic sentiment surging higher among the Chinese people, and strengthen their support for the government.
Why the political strategists in the west fail to see this? This question, I believe is the essence of the so-call democracy and freedom. It is all smoke and mirrors. Politicians and governments of the west have every bit of geopolitical interest in mind, so riots and tensions are the preferred methods. Who cares about the real interest of the people in third-world countries?
Now I have my say. Take it or ignore it, at your own risk.
Before I finish, I would like to touch on the topic of Tibet. As I mentioned in another thread, the western media like to say:"The communist troops of China entered Tibet in 1950", "Mao ZeTong sent troops to Tibet in 1950", or other variety of flavours, whenever they are on the issues concerning Tibet.
This is a very clever propoganda trick, for this statement on itself is true, but it does not tell the whole story. It creates an impression in the general western public that the "ChiCom" invaded Tibet in 1950. In fact before that time, Tibet was under the ruling of National Party's Republic of China, now situates in Taiwan. During the civil war, when the National government was overthrown, the Communist, of course were sending troops to occupy all territories under the ruling of previos government. So the above statement is as true as saying:"the Communist troops of China entered GuangDong province 1949", or "Mao sent his troops to Hainan Island in 1950". The communist troops had every right enter Tibet, for it was part of China before 1950.
Here I want to show you some evidence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LA2-NSRW-1-0148.jpg
This is a map of Republic of China printed by Rand McNally & Co. in the year 1914. It clearly shows Tibet was part of China.
http://www.1847usa.com/identify/YearSets/1942.htm
http://vol-news.com/tibet%20history/...efore_1950.php
US stamp in 1942. At left, is the President ABRAHAM LINCON of USA; at right, is the first Chinese President of Republic of China, Shun Zhongshan(Sun Yat-sen). At that time, China and US were allies to fight against the Japanese. The map on the stamp includes Tibet.
http://vol-news.com/tibet%20history/...efore_1950.php
(Last picture at linked page)Indian Map by V. & K. Publishing Co. that illustrates the India territory from 1700-1792 (Qing Dynasty of China). One can clearly see that XiZang (Tibet) was part of China.
Also see these references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IG...909reduced.jpg
OK, case closed. You might not change your mind on this issue, and continue to fall for the Brad Pitt, Richard Gee Hollywood dramatized fantacy about Tibet, but at least have some facts in mind when you entering a debate.
Have a good weekend.
Comment