"ChiCom" Demystified

[touchring]

Re: "ChiCom" Demystified

While I think communism is a very bad system, I feel it was probably better than what China had before, and probably the only way they could pull themselves out of the rut they were in for so many years. It united a very fractured society.

I think this is subjective. You can't use 1950s as a gauge. People were uneducated in those days. Since then, every country or city in north east asia has progressed beyond the 50s.

South Korea was almost totally destroyed in the 50s (much worst off than China - i read GDP in South Korea was like half of China's after the war), but today, it is better off in every respect.

I think if the Nationalists had remained in power, China will definitely be better off today, political, socially and economically. Socially especially - there won't be slavery as they had discovered in some parts of China.

[santafe2]

Re: "ChiCom" Demystified

You're neglecting that between 50% and 70% of the so called patriotic PVA troops in the Korean conflict were actually captured Nationalist Chinese soldiers.

A convenient way to make use of an otherwise drain on Communist China's resources - and one of the reasons why manpower losses were not considered as significant by the Chinese army command as might have been.

These troops were part of the at least 2.25M soldiers captured in the last 2 years of the Chinese civil war.

I found skyson's post illuminating and I think you're nitpicking. I'll tell you a story, (iTulip way?). About a year ago I was defending my position with regard to a small point that EJ/Fred had made with regard to a renewable energy bill. I knew I was correct and Fred was hammering me from his point of view while I was righteously defending my space, Metal called me out as a nitpicker. It pissed me off at the time because I knew I was correct but as I look back on the entire discussion in a less passionate way I get their point. I hope you'll learn to read skyson's posts like that.

[ER59]

Re: "ChiCom" Demystified

Can anyone find examples of an ethnic minority (skin color) being elected to the top political office in any country? (not gender)

from Wikipedia:

China Presidents: All Chinese (I don't see any Tibetan guys in the list)
Japan: All Japanese (no anglo-saxons nor black guys)
Canadian PMs : All White (most look anglo-saxon)
British PMs : All White (anglo-saxon looking)
French PMs: All White (french looking)
America : All White except Obama (1/2 white, skin 100% black)

Russia (1924 - 1953): Stalin - born Iosef Besarionis dze Jughashvili, Georgian. His Russian was limited and he had a very heavy accent. Killed millions including his georgian relatives and used to be freinds. Nevertheless many russian solders when attacking during the WWII were screaming: "For the motherland! For Stalin!" He died in 1953 and many citizens of the Soviet Union wept for the man they called "Father" and "Teacher".

[flintlock]

Re: "ChiCom" Demystified

My understanding is that China under the Nationalists was basically serfdom for most people. I think it is why the communist were able to win. Even communism beats serfdom.

[c1ue]

Re: "ChiCom" Demystified

Once in the battle field, the soldiers knew intimidately what to do. There were no guns pointing at them to force them to fight, and they willingly sacrificed their lives for their comrades.

Some of the soldiers fought because they were simply soldiers for a paycheck - or in this case food.

Some of them fought because they had nowhere else to go.

Some of them fought because they had to.

Some of them may even have fought because they were told the US was going to invade China (a lie).

As for sacrificing for comrades - I hardly ascribe this to Communism. Loyalty to those fighting alongside you is historically stronger than any other ties including higher level military commanders.

I found skyson's post illuminating and I think you're nitpicking.

I hardly think 500,000+ ex-Nationalist soldiers to be nitpicking, nor that these people would easily qualify as 'suspect' since so many other Chinese who were not even directly affiliated with the Kuomingtang (Nationalist party) were sent to re-education camps specifically for being 'suspect'.

Having such a large force of trained manpower imposing an economic and security burden while simultaneously having an opportunity to 'help' a Communist neighbor ... makes the entry of China into the Korean conflict much less mystifying.

As for Skyson's posts - I know a number of Communist Chinese well and I see nothing illuminating: a clear lack of historical context, a desire to highlight what the Chinese government has repeatedly stressed through the mainland Chinese media and the mainland Chinese education system, etc etc.

If you want to read more of this there are plenty of easy forums to get more.

But then lack of context and inability to think outside of mainstream media is no different than most anywhere else.

As for your issues with metalman - you should bring it up with him.

[skyson]

Re: "ChiCom" Demystified

Some of the soldiers fought because they were simply soldiers for a paycheck - or in this case food.

Some of them fought because they had nowhere else to go.

Some of them fought because they had to.

Some of them may even have fought because they were told the US was going to invade China (a lie).

As for sacrificing for comrades - I hardly ascribe this to Communism. Loyalty to those fighting alongside you is historically stronger than any other ties including higher level military commanders.

Wow, thank you for speaking up for the American soldiers in Iraq! SUPPORT THE TROOPS!!!

Really, who would enjoy fighting? The above description could be applied to any soldiers involved in any war in our history.

But from memoirs of those nationlist-turned-comumist soldiers I read in the past, pride played a big role in their fights in Korean War.

From beling like sheeples subjected to slaughters by the Japanese and orther foreign troops in the past, now they were up against the arm forces of the numbe one super power!! And they were beating them up!

It was like in the world cup soccer game, a team from nowhere, not only advancing to the final, but managing to tie in score with the Brazil team. That is simply an incredible feeling!

Yes, ego, desire for respect, and self interest play a huge part in human behavior. To a nation, that is called nationalism. That is my main point in all my posts: f**k ideology, nationalism rules!

[c1ue]

Re: "ChiCom" Demystified

Yes, ego, desire for respect, and self interest play a huge part in human behavior. To a nation, that is called nationalism. That is my main point in all my posts: f**k ideology, nationalism rules!

Clearly your understanding of nationalism is different than mine.

For one thing, have you ever considered the possibility that your nationalism exists due to manipulation by your government?

What better way to motivate and control a population than to distract it with ideas of Deutschland Uber Alles, White Man's Burden and Manifest Destiny - three examples from other past Imperialists.

Also useful to disguise the reality that the CCP has at least as large a part of accumulating wealth in China as do the proverbial Chinese oligarchs. This is particularly sad since the CCP doesn't even have the excuse as in Russia of the original founders being all dead. Most of the upper level power structure are still the original Long Marchers.

There's nothing wrong with being proud of being Chinese.

But there's many things that can be wrong with being proud of China.

[skyson]

Re: "ChiCom" Demystified

Clearly your understanding of nationalism is different than mine.

For one thing, have you ever considered the possibility that your nationalism exists due to manipulation by your government?

What better way to motivate and control a population than to distract it with ideas of Deutschland Uber Alles, White Man's Burden and Manifest Destiny - three examples from other past Imperialists.

Also useful to disguise the reality that the CCP has at least as large a part of accumulating wealth in China as do the proverbial Chinese oligarchs. This is particularly sad since the CCP doesn't even have the excuse as in Russia of the original founders being all dead. Most of the upper level power structure are still the original Long Marchers.

There's nothing wrong with being proud of being Chinese.

But there's many things that can be wrong with being proud of China.

Oh, please don't force me to do any soul searching. Complicated matters cause headache. I am all for Mr. Bush's approach:"you are either this, or that". Much easier, right?

General public are susceptible to manipulations, by government, ideology, or special interest groups. However, I believe the collective wisdom of a people, will win in the longer term. All it takes is that one day one innocent child says:"the king has no clothes".

Mao famously said:"I am a nationalist, then I am a communist". For my self, I would say:"I am a nationalist, then I am not a communist".

The current political system in China is unjust, unkind, and unsustainable. This will change, eventually. But I hate revolutions. It create chaos. It bring destruction. Its destiny is not controllable. Enough blood has been bled, and enough tears have been wept in the past one hundred years in China. We don't want that anymore.

Is the pill handed out by the western doctor good for us? Look at what "shock therapy" done to Russia. Look at what "democratic therapy" done to Iraq. Oh, no, don't trust any doctor who will benefit from your death.

A famous Chinese writer and philosopher Lu Xun(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%B2%81%E8%BF%85) said:"Walk your own path. Let people talk".

Yes, lets see what is ahead.

[touchring]

Re: "ChiCom" Demystified

The nationalism propaganda that china is playing can be a scary thing. If anyone thinks that the US can pull itself out of the debt problem by devaluation will be in for a nasty surprise.

The Chinese will print as much money as the US would to maintain the exchange rate.

[santafe2]

Re: "ChiCom" Demystified

As for your issues with metalman - you should bring it up with him.

Worked out but thanks for your concern...:rolleyes: