China ethnic riots news capture (Warning: Graphic)

[flintlock]

Re: China ethnic riots news capture (Warning: Graphic)

Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness.

"Gunga lagunga"

So I got that going for me, which is nice.

[Slimprofits]

Re: China ethnic riots news capture (Warning: Graphic)

"Gunga lagunga"

So I got that going for me, which is nice.

A looper?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAblybiCtZc

[touchring]

Re: China ethnic riots news capture (Warning: Graphic)

Perhaps the new Chinese approach is to allow many Han Chinese to be martyred in order to draw international sympathy. I don't know. It seems like a stupid strategy to me, since everyone accuses Chinese of the worst anyway, and the retrograde Muslims there will never be appeased or peaceful until they are forced to shed their culture and religion. Only a Russia-style strategy will solve the problem.

Another Sept 11 trick?

Unless the Uighurs are really born savages, me thinks it's just plain simple terrorist operation.

Two or three dozen terrorists armed with traditional long swords can inflict quite a lot of damage on unarmed pedestrians, within half an hour, before the police or any security force can arrive.

[Slimprofits]

Re: China ethnic riots news capture (Warning: Graphic)

We might see this duplicated in the US:

Three nights of riots in French town after 21-year-old dies in police custody
Algerian family files lawsuit as Firminy case echoes other riots on suburban estates

Angelique Chrisafis in Paris
guardian.co.uk, Friday 10 July 2009 14.10 BST

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news...ty_inmate_dies

http://www.khou.com/news/local/crime....174d30e5.html

A woman serving a short sentence in a Houston, Texas, jail for possession of marijuana died in custody over the weekend, and officers are not saying how or why.

The 29-year-old, identified as Theresa Anthony, had expected to spend just two and a half weeks behind bars in the Harris County lockup. On Saturday, Cynthia Prude, Theresa’s mother, received a phone call from the jail’s Chaplain informing her that her daughter was dead.

As if the two and half weeks lockup for possession of the dried flowers from a naturally occurring plant weren't bad enough....

[radon]

Re: China ethnic riots news capture (Warning: Graphic)

I believe that the riots were started by a group of terrorists, maybe a few dozen of them - you don't see protesters in Europe carrying swords and hacking at people, killing a hundred people in 2 hours, don't you?

Furthermore, we all know that China is a police state - the fact that they could deploy 20,000 riot police within a day in just one city just shows the intense security presence within the city. We can deduce that the killing was done swiftly before the riot police were sent out of their barracks.

That among Uighurs there are terrorists and combatants is not far fetched since the Americans have caught 22 of them in Afghanistan fighting for the Talibans. The taliabn goals are to established the ideal Islamic state by means of war, whoever the opponent is, the chinese, the americans, the russians or even the moderate islamic governments.

Of course, there are also genuine Uighur protesters that numbered in hundreds and then grew to thousands unhappy over their plights.

Now the problem is that the communist authorities will not be able to differentiate between the terrorists and the real protesters. The end result will be that hundreds if not thousands of innocent people will be imprisoned and put away just because of what the few terrorists did.

There could only be one result for this Taliban styled operations - that real freedom, independence or autonomy for the Uighurs will be deferred by another 40 years.

They will never have any of those things anyway. Without access to the political process what other path is left open except armed revolt.

[radon]

Re: China ethnic riots news capture (Warning: Graphic)

the retrograde Muslims there will never be appeased or peaceful until they are forced to shed their culture and religion.

Perhaps this is why it is a fertile breeding ground for "terrorists". Of course you wouldn't be angry or resentful if you were forced to shed your culture and religion.

[allenjs]

Re: China ethnic riots news capture (Warning: Graphic)

Another Sept 11 trick?

Unless the Uighurs are really born savages, me thinks it's just plain simple terrorist operation.

Two or three dozen terrorists armed with traditional long swords can inflict quite a lot of damage on unarmed pedestrians, within half an hour, before the police or any security force can arrive.

Yeah, I don't think it was orchestrated by the communists, or even the Muslims for that matter. The Muslims were prepared for mayhem, but didn't necessarily plan this incident, given that the tension was precipitated by an event in a distant province. I'm just speculating that the communists may have different motivations in responding this time, and perhaps are hoping to get lots of propaganda footage of Muslims maiming innocent Han women and children (as was seen by peaceful Buddhists in Tibet), as a way to garner public support and international sympathy ahead of a silent and invisible retribution to take place after the overt violence wears down. Basically, the response this time is very different from previous times the Muslims did this over the past 50 years.

[allenjs]

Re: China ethnic riots news capture (Warning: Graphic)

Perhaps this is why it is a fertile breeding ground for "terrorists". Of course you wouldn't be angry or resentful if you were forced to shed your culture and religion.

I was probably too charitable in calling it a "culture". History has proven that these beasts are incapable of coexisting with anyone else, even when receiving massive foreign subsidies (as the Uighars have done, sucking on the teat of Han largesse for 50 years), so I don't really buy the moral relativism that paints them as victims. Their war on every other culture is codified in their religion, and they are not afraid to die by the same sword by which they live.

Their "culture" and religion tolerates only two alternatives: subjugation and submission of the host culture, or else extermination of their own culture a-la Chechnya. The impossibility of their coexistence is their own choice, not a condition imposed upon them by Han Chinese. Given the two choices, the only rational Chinese choice is to deal with them as Russia dealt with Chechnya.

[radon]

Re: China ethnic riots news capture (Warning: Graphic)

I was probably too charitable in calling it a "culture".

Those foreigners are not human I guess.

History has proven that these beasts are incapable of coexisting with anyone else, even when receiving massive foreign subsidies (as the Uighars have done, sucking on the teat of Han largesse for 50 years), so I don't really buy the moral relativism that paints them as victims.

I'm sorry we should have used moral relativism to paint the Chinese as victims instead. We can talk about moral relativism when China's government start treating its citizens as well as dogs and cats are treated in America. In many ways both sides are equally barbaric. I suppose in that way they deserve each other.

Their war on every other culture is codified in their religion, and they are not afraid to die by the same sword by which they live.

Their "culture" and religion tolerates only two alternatives: subjugation and submission of the host culture, or else extermination of their own culture

The inflexibility of the government leaves no alternatives. Why should they go quietly into the night? Of course they are going to fight. You should expect it. And from the Chinese side, why maintain this sham of government support when really they want them gone. Why wait for 5 generations for demographics to destroy them?

a-la Chechnya. The impossibility of their coexistence is their own choice, not a condition imposed upon them by Han Chinese. Given the two choices, the only rational Chinese choice is to deal with them as Russia dealt with Chechnya.

Of course it is imposed upon them by the government. Who has political power in the region? Don't act like both sides have an equal position from which to negotiate.

Hey, I have an idea. Maybe china can build a wall like the Israels. It worked pretty well for them. Turn it into a public works project, stimulate the economy. You could kill two birds with one stone. Make it big too. I want to be able to see this one from space.

[allenjs]

Re: China ethnic riots news capture (Warning: Graphic)

Of course it is imposed upon them by the government. Who has political power in the region? Don't act like both sides have an equal position from which to negotiate.

Should both sides have an equal negotiating position? If Molok, Carthage, or Uighar have severely restricted negotiating positions and are fighting for their last breaths, isn't that good for humanity? What human values are upheld by a culture that covers women in bags, forbids education and other basic freedoms for females, practices polygamy, and teaches militant suicide?

I admit that I'm veering off topic, and being somewhat unpleasant, but this postmodernist refusal to make value judgments is tiresome. I agree that the Uighars are convinced that their demographic survival is at stake (though this is propaganda; since they are giving birth advantages in addition to government welfare, but the average western propagandist cannot be expected to know this). However, you cannot argue that Chinese persecution causes the Uighars to treat their women as less than human, rape and kill "infidel dogs" and unveiled females, or any of the other subhuman values they have embedded in their culture.

Hey, I have an idea. Maybe china can build a wall like the Israels. It worked pretty well for them. Turn it into a public works project, stimulate the economy. You could kill two birds with one stone. Make it big too. I want to be able to see this one from space.

Sadly, that seems to be the Chinese instinct. I fear that none of their leaders have the spine of a Putin.

Also, I have to correct my earlier speculation about China perhaps wanting some media event to play up the Han "martyrdom". This appears to have been incorrect. I just got done watching the CCTV6 coverage, and it is basically one big infomercial of all the Han people in Urumqi explaining how there is no danger at all, and please don't cancel your tourist plans, since it's really a wonderful and peaceful place.

[D-Mack]

Re: China ethnic riots news capture (Warning: Graphic)

Washington is Playing a Deeper Game with China

by F William Engdahl

...

The Strategic Importance of Xinjiang for Eurasian Energy Infrastructure


There is another reason for the nations of the SCO, a vital national security element, to having peace and stability in China’s Xinjiang region. Some of China’s most important oil and gas pipeline routes pass directly through Xinjiang province. Energy relations between Kazkhstan and China are of enormous strategic importance for both countries, and allow China to become less dependent on oil supply sources that can be cut off by possible US interdiction should relations deteriorate to such a point.


Kazak President Nursultan Nazarbayev paid a State visit in April 2009 to Beijing. The talks concerned deepening economic cooperation, above all in the energy area, where Kazkhastan holds huge reserves of oil and likely as well of natural gas. After the talks in Beijing, Chinese media carried articles with such titles as “"Kazakhstani oil to fill in the Great Chinese pipe."


The Atasu-Alashankou pipeline to be completed in 2009 will provide transportation of transit gas to China via Xinjiang. As well Chinese energy companies are involved in construction of a Zhanazholskiy gas processing plant, Pavlodar electrolyze plant and Moynakskaya hydro electric station in Kazakhstan.


According to the US Government’s Energy Information Administration, Kazakhstan’s Kashagan field is the largest oil field outside the Middle East and the fifth largest in the world in terms of reserves, located off the northern shore of the Caspian Sea, near the city of Atyrau. China has built a 613-mile-long pipeline from Atasu, in northwestern Kazakhstan, to Alashankou at the border of China's Xinjiang region which is exporting Caspian oil to China. PetroChina’s ChinaOil is the exclusive buyer of the crude oil on the Chinese side. The pipeline is a joint venture of CNPC and Kaztransoil of Kazkhstan. Some 85,000 bbl/d of Kazakh crude oil flowed through the pipeline during 2007. China’s CNPC is also involved in other major energy projects with Kazkhstan. They all traverse China’s Xinjiang region.


In 2007 CNPC signed an agreement to invest more than $2 billion to construct a natural gas pipeline from Turkmenistan through Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan to China. That pipeline would start at Gedaim on the border of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan and extend 1,100 miles through Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan to Khorgos in China's Xinjiang region. Turkmenistan and China have signed a 30-year supply agreement for the gas that would fill the pipeline. CNPC has set up two entities to oversee the Turkmen upstream project and the development of a second pipeline that will cross China from the Xinjiang region to southeast China at a cost of some $7 billion.


As well, Russia and China are discussing major natural gas pipelines from eastern Siberia through Xinjiang into China. Eastern Siberia contains around 135 Trillion cubic feet of proven plus probable natural gas reserves. The Kovykta natural gas field could give China with natural gas in the next decade via a proposed pipeline.


During the current global economic crisis, Kazakhstan received a major credit from China of $10 billion, half of which is for oil and gas sector. The oil pipeline Atasu-Alashankou and the gas pipeline China-Central Asia, are an instrument of strategic 'linkage' of central Asian countries to the economy China. That Eurasian cohesion from Russia to China across Central Asian countries is the geopolitical cohesion Washington most fears. While they would never say so, growing instability in Xinjiang would be an ideal way for Washington to weaken that growing cohesion of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization nations.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=14327

follow the oil

[touchring]

Re: China ethnic riots news capture (Warning: Graphic)

Also, I have to correct my earlier speculation about China perhaps wanting some media event to play up the Han "martyrdom". This appears to have been incorrect. I just got done watching the CCTV6 coverage, and it is basically one big infomercial of all the Han people in Urumqi explaining how there is no danger at all, and please don't cancel your tourist plans, since it's really a wonderful and peaceful place.

Definitely, don't be fooled, there maybe ethnic dissent, and street protests from genuine Uighur protesters, but from the way the killing was carried out, it is unmistakeably a terrorist operation by a militant group.

The communist propaganda is out in full force trying to diffuse the tensions.

[radon]

Re: China ethnic riots news capture (Warning: Graphic)

Should both sides have an equal negotiating position? If Molok, Carthage, or Uighar have severely restricted negotiating positions and are fighting for their last breaths, isn't that good for humanity? What human values are upheld by a culture that covers women in bags, forbids education and other basic freedoms for females, practices polygamy, and teaches militant suicide?

When has the Chinese government ever been concerned with what is good for humanity? Given the nature and history of the Chinese government it would be difficult to convince me they have an altruistic motive. Furthermore, the Uighurs are completely at their mercy, and somehow you would argue that this situation is not forced on them. I would counter that because they have no political or military power it would be hard to conclude anything else. Whether they should have equal negotiation positions or not, the one who has all the power in the region bears all the responsibility since they unilaterally determine the policies and outcomes.

I also find it humorous that you would bring up how Uighurs treat women, as if the Chinese women have it so much better. It is like someone arguing that they are superior because they beat their wife with a smaller stick than the other guy.

I admit that I'm veering off topic, and being somewhat unpleasant, but this postmodernist refusal to make value judgments is tiresome. I agree that the Uighars are convinced that their demographic survival is at stake (though this is propaganda; since they are giving birth advantages in addition to government welfare, but the average western propagandist cannot be expected to know this). However, you cannot argue that Chinese persecution causes the Uighars to treat their women as less than human, rape and kill "infidel dogs" and unveiled females, or any of the other subhuman values they have embedded in their culture.

Sadly, that seems to be the Chinese instinct. I fear that none of their leaders have the spine of a Putin.

You must really like that guy, but he is hardly a shining example of morality. Using postmodernism and moral relativism to absolve a government of genocide is equally tiresome. I though we had finished with that after WWII. You agree that they feel their survival is at stake and yet you struggle to understand why, in the absents of a political process, they resort to violence. This is baffling to me.

As to western propaganda, you need to realize that there are many sources of news outside of china and not all of them are controlled by the state. I have always found it funny when the soviets would complain about western propaganda as if we had something like their policy of state control of the media. I think the real problem is that they encounter so few viewpoints outside the party line they they have no idea what to do once they hear one. Instead of thinking critically it they simply dismiss it out of hand as a politically motivated fabrication.

[allenjs]

Re: China ethnic riots news capture (Warning: Graphic)

I also find it humorous that you would bring up how Uighurs treat women, as if the Chinese women have it so much better. It is like someone arguing that they are superior because they beat their wife with a smaller stick than the other guy.

I've met people who feel that way. They tend to be people who have a fantasy of repressed or submissive Chinese women from reading dimestore novels. And they inevitably don't know any Chinese women. Tell a Chinese woman that she is repressed, and she'll kick your a** and have you cooking and cleaning for her like the men in Shanghai do.

In some ways, Chinese women have more freedom and self-determination than women in the west. And they are light years ahead of the Muslim or Hindu women. Whatever the faults of Han culture, repression of women isn't high on the list. Seriously; anyone who bandies about such stereotypes instantly loses all credibility with me.

Likewise, it's simple-minded to argue that the communist leadership has no concern whatsoever for higher ideals. The party leadership is filled with idealists, which is one reason the Uighurs are not being wholesale massacred right now. It is true that corruption is endemic, but it's absurd to argue that repression of Uighurs is done as a means of lining bureaucrats pockets. The only common-sense reason that the Han would be interested in overtaking the Uighar culture is because they think their own culture is superior. And they are right, I might add. Why invent conspiracy theories when the simple answer works so well?

Seriously, it boggles the mind when someone argues that "the Han Chinese have some evil secret motive for wiping out the Uighurs, so they have invented propaganda about cultural superiority to support their nefarious aims!" I'm thinking that such an illogical thought process is not the result of a superior education system.

[radon]

Re: China ethnic riots news capture (Warning: Graphic)

I've met people who feel that way. They tend to be people who have a fantasy of repressed or submissive Chinese women from reading dimestore novels. And they inevitably don't know any Chinese women. Tell a Chinese woman that she is repressed, and she'll kick your a** and have you cooking and cleaning for her like the men in Shanghai do.

In some ways, Chinese women have more freedom and self-determination than women in the west. And they are light years ahead of the Muslim or Hindu women. Whatever the faults of Han culture, repression of women isn't high on the list. Seriously; anyone who bandies about such stereotypes instantly loses all credibility with me.

I've seen this sort of misogynistic behaviour first hand. Maybe it is a normal thing to someone from china but others find it shocking. And maybe it isn't high on your list because you can find some culture that treats women worse, but that doesn't absolve the Chinese. Frankly, I'm not surprised that you don't think there is any problem. Muslims in many countries don't think there is any problem with women wearing burqas, and if you ask the women they seem to consider it necessary for modesty and not oppression.

My point is that your entire argument can easily be reversed to paint the Chinese in the same light as you paint the Uighurs.

Likewise, it's simple-minded to argue that the communist leadership has no concern whatsoever for higher ideals. The party leadership is filled with idealists, which is one reason the Uighurs are not being wholesale massacred right now. It is true that corruption is endemic, but it's absurd to argue that repression of Uighurs is done as a means of lining bureaucrats pockets. The only common-sense reason that the Han would be interested in overtaking the Uighar culture is because they think their own culture is superior. And they are right, I might add. Why invent conspiracy theories when the simple answer works so well?

Seriously, it boggles the mind when someone argues that "the Han Chinese have some evil secret motive for wiping out the Uighurs, so they have invented propaganda about cultural superiority to support their nefarious aims!" I'm thinking that such an illogical thought process is not the result of a superior education system.

Right, they think their culture is superior. You don't have to convince me of the cultural superiority complex since history and current events are full of examples. This sort of conceit is unlikely to win them friends among their neighbors. This whole thing reminds me of Wrights's Native Son. You think they are beasts, and you treat them as such. Yet you are surprised when they act like beasts.

As for the rest of the paragraph you missed my point entirely when you wandered off into conspiracy theory land and invented a straw man to knock down. After giving us an example of a logical fallacy you go on to say it is not the result of a superior educational system. I'm inclined to agree with that.

I'll try to spell out a clearly as I can my position so far:

1) The Chinese want to take the moral high ground. It is impossible for them to do this with any credibility unless they start treating their own citizens better and have some transparency in the media so that there is some way for the average Chinese citizen to know what actually happens in their country.

2) Because the Uighur live in an environment where deviation from the party line is quashed and they lack access to the political process the only outlet for frustration is violence. This a completely predictable outcome.

3) Since the Chinese government controls the region and unilaterally determines policy they are responsible for the poor outcome resulting from those policies.

4) The process of displacement is unpleasant for the people destined for extinction. Genocide as a matter of government policy has no justification.