Cap and Trade

[santafe2]

Re: Cap and Trade

(a) energy consumption is tied strongly to standard of living,...

Ash, I think it's important to preface your statement with "in a world of cheap carbon based energy,". Because, that is a world we will be leaving behind over the next 10-20 years depending on who you believe and what path we collectively follow.

Energy conservation will more likely have a strong correlation to standard of living within 10 years. Within 20 years to be sure. Homes can use 10% the carbon based energy they use today with proper retrofits. Lives can be redesigned to require much, much less mobile energy.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Cap and Trade

Here are the two images you (TheServant) tried to post. You used the link to the html web page containing the images, not the image links themselves.








Good post - well backed up with these images. Thanks!

[BiscayneSunrise]

Re: Cap and Trade

This whole thing reminds me an awful lot of taxes on tobacco.

If tobacco is such a social evil, why not just outlaw it outright? Well, then the government would have that much less income to fund themselves.

It is likely that tax revenue from C&T will go directly to fund general operations. If that is the case, watch for future relaxing of caps in order to keep the punitive tax revenue flowing.

[MarkL]

Re: Cap and Trade

For the record, I think that Nuclear energy will probably be the largest part of the solution. However, due to the massive amount of energy used and carbon created in the creation of the cement, and the fact that these plants too have limited lifespans, the ROI is not as dramatic as your post implies.

[we_are_toast]

Re: Cap and Trade

Libraries and Libraries of data, decades of research, near unanimous consensus, and thousands of published papers on one side; deliberate distortion of data, outright false conclusions, and not one scientific publication on the other. Flat earth VS round earth, Earth or Sun as center of the solar system, gravity or magic, and on and on it goes.

EJ nailed it.

The U.S. has entered a new dark age of unreason. ...

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Cap and Trade

Libraries and Libraries of data, decades of research, near unanimous consensus, and thousands of published papers on one side; deliberate distortion of data, outright false conclusions, and not one scientific publication on the other. Flat earth VS round earth, Earth or Sun as center of the solar system, gravity or magic, and on and on it goes.

I suppose if I had been paying closer attention, I'd know the answer to this next question ... which side do you figure has the research versus which side has the distortions?

[thunderdownunder]

Your wrong - GS & JPM and co-horts are about to blow another bubble, one they have control over and (as usual) profit from both ends. I repeat This is lunacy.
Some bankers are going to tax life itself. How much can they squeeze?

Thomas Jefferson said it well - "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

Cap and trade is a new currency upon which you can make margins.
controlling it by being the conduit through which flows makes you more powerful than any government and given Goldmans past history at bubbles right back to the great depression, I fear that this one dwarf's all before it. They are the market makers but also the market player.
Tax it directly by all means but don't give The bubble makers the control over the right to a tax life (carbon based life) because they then control, conduit, derivate and manipulate the same way they did before. Like chess pieces on a board they will have control of the worlds economy, corporations and every living soul in it.
If power corrupts then absolute power corrupts absoulutley
Please fight this lunacy - I know we have to inflate but not this way.
This is not about "Global warming" or now "climate change", these are terms that screen, divide, conquer and make noise, while in the background they plan on darker things.
If you want this sort of "World order" then give them control over Power & Energy itself.
I think there are more equitable ways to share and monitor world resources for the betterment of life, for all.
If you think Ive been taken over by the "Foil hat brigade" your so wrong. Just follow the money by logical thought, as it leads to one conclusion.

Edit:
I found this later, supporting of the facts - now I really am concerned and just a little afraid but at least I'm not alone, others have followed the money - Please fight this Lunacy - Please!

http://www.inquisitr.com/27439/matt-...ubble-machine/

[santafe2]

Re: Cap and Trade

I found this later, supporting of the facts - now I really am concerned and just a little afraid but at least I'm not alone, others have followed the money - Please fight this Lunacy - Please!

http://www.inquisitr.com/27439/matt-...ubble-machine/

I've read Taibbi for years and I think the Reuter's reporter captures the essence of Taibbi fairly well:

...you don’t read a Taibbi rant for an evenhanded look at both sides of a complex story. It’s more a forcefully-put case for the prosecution...

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmo...nds-to-taibbi/

[peakishmael]

Re: Cap and Trade

I suppose if I had been paying closer attention, I'd know the answer to this next question ... which side do you figure has the research versus which side has the distortions?

Speaking for Toast, since the data is associated with the thousands of published papers, and overwhelming scientific consensus, I think it's safe to say that those things are associated with the "side" that views global climate change as real, present, and significantly driven by humans.

[chr5648]

Re: Cap and Trade

So if we take out carbon, won't we cause global cooling????? We're gonna freeze to death OMG!!!!!

There is no logic to any of these climate arguments

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Cap and Trade

I think it's safe to say that ... significantly driven by humans.

As I suspected toast would say.

I'm not going to debate the subject of human caused global warming here. But please do understand that some of us disagree, strongly disagree.

[flintlock]

Re: Cap and Trade

Dammit, Its cows like you causing this problem!!!

[santafe2]

Re: Cap and Trade

Dammit, Its cows like you causing this problem!!!

But as the other poster said, we need to quit eating cows to off-set all the global cooling we're going to cause with these crazy solar panels. If everyone will buy enough of them, I'll buy a farm for the cows...;)

[TheServant]

Re: Cap and Trade

Speaking for Toast, since the data is associated with the thousands of published papers, and overwhelming scientific consensus, I think it's safe to say that those things are associated with the "side" that views global climate change as real, present, and significantly driven by humans.

I am not going to debate the validity of the theory either as we will be all dead and gone, along with our children, grandchildren and so on before any truly compelling judgment can be made on a statistical basis, but I will caution against assuming that the idea of "runaway man-made global warming" is a scientific consensus.

This theory has become completely politicized over the past decade and is now the cornerstone to a shift in our entire economic paradigm. It has received the most support, via grants and publicity, and is now vital to our nations' respective policies.

To me, it is much more important to our economic discussions here at iTulip that we focus on why these policies are being made, and try to figure out how they will fare, and hence, what policies will come in the future.

As I have eluded to earlier in this thread, I believe the energy policy is based more on national security (net oil importers with an oil economy). I believe the Iraq wars were about this, but that is for another time. In conjunction with the wars, I believe the current "behind doors" focus for the current energy bill is more weighted to security -vs- environment. Of course, it is essentially set up in such a way as to pander to corporate America. What isn't?

From a policy standpoint, this is one of the more important considerations as it is the most likely source of failure (greed always is). I read an article yesterday that suggested that an unintended consequence of this policy would be for the oil companies to import more oil from abroad to avoid fees. I believe this research was funded by big oil, and probably skewed, but it makes some sense, and would act to weaken our energy position further. (I'll look for the link).

From a short to mid term investing angle, I would be looking for an energy and geopolitical climate that would solidify passage of the similar bill in the Senate this fall. It's a must, in some form, after all. Looks like we have an over-abundance of unrest across the globe already, and oil is already back over $70/bbl. Go figure. (Maybe there won't be the standard pull back in price late summer/early fall?). Just a thought.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Cap and Trade

Dammit, Its cows like you causing this problem!!!

Yes, I confess. I am an "interested" party in this global warming dispute. ;).