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  • The inflation vs. deflation debate

    http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/23/news...ion=2009062313

    The inflation vs. deflation debate

    Many economists are worried about prices -- but they disagree about whether prices are going up or down.

    By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer
    June 23, 2009: 1:50 PM ET
    NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Should the Federal Reserve be more worried about the threat of inflation on the long-term horizon, or deflation in the short-term?
    It's an important question to ask as the Fed's policy-making committee prepares to release a statement about the economy on Wednesday.
    Those who fear inflation argue that the recent rise in oil prices, the dollar's loss of value and the recent rise in yields on U.S. Treasurys are all signs that consumers could soon be grappling with higher prices for lots of goods and services.
    These economists say the seeds for inflation have been sown by the Fed's extraordinary efforts to keep the economy afloat over the past year.
    Many believe the central bank needs to pull back quickly on the various programs it has created to pump cash into the economy, even if the U.S. economy is still struggling. If the Fed doesn't act, it could risk even worse problems down the road -- especially if long-term bond yields and the lending rates tied to them continue to rise.
    "There's no doubt that what the Fed is doing today is inflationary," said Brian Wesbury, chief economist at First Trust Portfolios. "The real sign of that is the increase of commodity prices since early this year."
    But others argue the economy is still so weak that deflation, or a drop in prices, is the more serious threat. The Consumer Price Index, the government's key inflation measure, posted its largest 12-month drop since 1950 in May.
    This year-over-year decline in prices, coupled with rising unemployment and low factory utilization, could be signs that prices are likely to keep falling. And while lower prices might sound like a positive to consumers with budgets stretched to the breaking point, economists are in general agreement that deflation is far more destructive to the economy than inflation.
    Businesses unable to make a profit in an environment of declining prices will likely cut production and lay off more workers. That could cause a deflationary spiral. The Great Depression and Japan's so-called Lost Decade of economic stagnation are both well-documented examples of the damage that deflation can cause.
    "I think the predominant risk in the next 6 to 12 months is deflation," said Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's Economy.com. "There's excess capacity everywhere. There's vacant real estate across all property types. Unemployment continues to rise. I don't see how businesses can raise prices in this environment."


    Zandi said one reason people don't need to fear inflation is because the Fed knows how to fight inflation -- with higher interest rates and tighter money supply.
    "But if you get into a deflationary trap, it's very difficult to get out of. Japan is a good case in point," he said.
    Rich Yamarone, director of economic research at Argus Research, said he's not concerned about such a trap. But he agreed with Zandi that people shouldn't worry about the prospect of runaway inflation either since the Fed can easily put the brakes on the economy if it has to.
    "The next problem coming down the pipe will be inflation, not deflation. I just don't think it'll be happening any time soon," Yamarone said. "And I suspect the guys who control the spigots are on top of this."
    What will the Fed say?
    Investors looking for clues about how the Fed views the threat of inflation or deflation won't have to wait much longer.
    When the Fed wraps up its two day policy meeting Wednesday, it is virtually certain that it will leave its key interest rate near zero. What will be watched more closely is whether its statement has language warning of greater risk from rising or falling prices in the future.
    In its last statement, the Fed said it "expects that inflation will remain subdued." It also rang a deflationary warning bell, indicating that "inflation could persist for a time below rates that best foster economic growth and price stability in the longer term."
    But the so-called inflation hawks at the Fed have become more vocal since that April meeting about what they see as the growing threat of inflation.
    Philadelphia Fed President Charles Plosser argued in a speech last month that unless the Fed soon becomes aggressive in raising rates and disposing of assets it bought during the financial crisis, it could spark the kind of high inflation levels seen in the late 1970s.
    Wesbury agrees that the Fed has to be more vigilant about fighting inflation and added that the Fed may soon need to raise rates. He said low inflation today is only a result of oil prices falling from last year's record highs. Core price readings, which strip out food and energy, have remained stubbornly high despite the weak economy.
    "In order to fight [inflation], you have to start tightening now," said Wesbury. "By the end of this year it'll be too late to stop the inflation that will be happening in 2011."
    But Zandi believes Fed chairman Ben Bernanke and other central bank policymakers that he refers to as "deflation hawks" are still concerned enough about the risk of deflation that he does not think the Fed will rein in its stimulative programs anytime soon just because of long-term inflation fears.
    "If they do bow to that view, then I think the risk will rise that we'll have outright deflation," said Zandi.

  • #2
    Re: The inflation vs. deflation debate

    Originally posted by Camtender View Post
    The inflation vs. deflation debate

    Many economists are worried about prices -- but they disagree about whether prices are going up or down.
    The First Law of Economists: For every economist, there exists an equal and opposite economist.

    The Second Law of Economists: They’re both wrong.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The inflation vs. deflation debate

      2 economists = 3 opinions

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The inflation vs. deflation debate

        I'm still trying to figure out what is wrong with negitive CPI. Asset deflation I can understand. Shouldn't all the "productivity" I am always hearing about result in lower prices for goods and services?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The inflation vs. deflation debate

          Originally posted by cjppjc View Post
          I'm still trying to figure out what is wrong with negitive CPI. Asset deflation I can understand. Shouldn't all the "productivity" I am always hearing about result in lower prices for goods and services?
          read gary shilling's book on deflation. he goes on about the "good deflation" of increasing productivity lowering prices. we had that in the late 19th century. because of the experience of the great depression, however, deflation came to be seen as fraught with risk. since relative prices are always adjusting up and down, if you eliminate the possibility of deflation you must drive policy to create at least some inflation over the broad economy- the long-standing policy of the fed. inflation targeters aim at about 2% inflation. they don't aim at zero.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The inflation vs. deflation debate

            Anybody consider the fact that we have enough crap?

            For instance. If everybody in an economy has what they want then only perishable things would need replaced and would have a sustainable price. We have too many houses, cars, tvs, and computers in the economy. Prices will fall.

            This isn't Rocket science folks nor is it non-linear dynamics.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The inflation vs. deflation debate

              Originally posted by tastymannatees View Post
              2 economists = 3 opinions
              Unless they're Elliott Wavers. Then it's only 2.6178 opinions, the inverse of the .382 Fibonacci ratio.
              Most folks are good; a few aren't.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The inflation vs. deflation debate

                Originally posted by sunskyfan View Post
                Anybody consider the fact that we have enough crap?
                Hi. My name is Cow. I am a crapaholic.
                Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The inflation vs. deflation debate

                  Originally posted by Camtender View Post
                  http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/23/news...ion=2009062313

                  The inflation vs. deflation debate

                  Many economists are worried about prices -- but they disagree about whether prices are going up or down.

                  By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer
                  June 23, 2009: 1:50 PM ET
                  NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Should the Federal Reserve be more worried about the threat of inflation on the long-term horizon, or deflation in the short-term?
                  It's an important question to ask as the Fed's policy-making committee prepares to release a statement about the economy on Wednesday.
                  Those who fear inflation argue that the recent rise in oil prices, the dollar's loss of value and the recent rise in yields on U.S. Treasurys are all signs that consumers could soon be grappling with higher prices for lots of goods and services.
                  These economists say the seeds for inflation have been sown by the Fed's extraordinary efforts to keep the economy afloat over the past year.
                  Many believe the central bank needs to pull back quickly on the various programs it has created to pump cash into the economy, even if the U.S. economy is still struggling. If the Fed doesn't act, it could risk even worse problems down the road -- especially if long-term bond yields and the lending rates tied to them continue to rise.
                  "There's no doubt that what the Fed is doing today is inflationary," said Brian Wesbury, chief economist at First Trust Portfolios. "The real sign of that is the increase of commodity prices since early this year."
                  But others argue the economy is still so weak that deflation, or a drop in prices, is the more serious threat. The Consumer Price Index, the government's key inflation measure, posted its largest 12-month drop since 1950 in May.
                  This year-over-year decline in prices, coupled with rising unemployment and low factory utilization, could be signs that prices are likely to keep falling. And while lower prices might sound like a positive to consumers with budgets stretched to the breaking point, economists are in general agreement that deflation is far more destructive to the economy than inflation.
                  Businesses unable to make a profit in an environment of declining prices will likely cut production and lay off more workers. That could cause a deflationary spiral. The Great Depression and Japan's so-called Lost Decade of economic stagnation are both well-documented examples of the damage that deflation can cause.
                  "I think the predominant risk in the next 6 to 12 months is deflation," said Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's Economy.com. "There's excess capacity everywhere. There's vacant real estate across all property types. Unemployment continues to rise. I don't see how businesses can raise prices in this environment."


                  Zandi said one reason people don't need to fear inflation is because the Fed knows how to fight inflation -- with higher interest rates and tighter money supply.
                  "But if you get into a deflationary trap, it's very difficult to get out of. Japan is a good case in point," he said.
                  Rich Yamarone, director of economic research at Argus Research, said he's not concerned about such a trap. But he agreed with Zandi that people shouldn't worry about the prospect of runaway inflation either since the Fed can easily put the brakes on the economy if it has to.
                  "The next problem coming down the pipe will be inflation, not deflation. I just don't think it'll be happening any time soon," Yamarone said. "And I suspect the guys who control the spigots are on top of this."
                  What will the Fed say?
                  Investors looking for clues about how the Fed views the threat of inflation or deflation won't have to wait much longer.
                  When the Fed wraps up its two day policy meeting Wednesday, it is virtually certain that it will leave its key interest rate near zero. What will be watched more closely is whether its statement has language warning of greater risk from rising or falling prices in the future.
                  In its last statement, the Fed said it "expects that inflation will remain subdued." It also rang a deflationary warning bell, indicating that "inflation could persist for a time below rates that best foster economic growth and price stability in the longer term."
                  But the so-called inflation hawks at the Fed have become more vocal since that April meeting about what they see as the growing threat of inflation.
                  Philadelphia Fed President Charles Plosser argued in a speech last month that unless the Fed soon becomes aggressive in raising rates and disposing of assets it bought during the financial crisis, it could spark the kind of high inflation levels seen in the late 1970s.
                  Wesbury agrees that the Fed has to be more vigilant about fighting inflation and added that the Fed may soon need to raise rates. He said low inflation today is only a result of oil prices falling from last year's record highs. Core price readings, which strip out food and energy, have remained stubbornly high despite the weak economy.
                  "In order to fight [inflation], you have to start tightening now," said Wesbury. "By the end of this year it'll be too late to stop the inflation that will be happening in 2011."
                  But Zandi believes Fed chairman Ben Bernanke and other central bank policymakers that he refers to as "deflation hawks" are still concerned enough about the risk of deflation that he does not think the Fed will rein in its stimulative programs anytime soon just because of long-term inflation fears.
                  "If they do bow to that view, then I think the risk will rise that we'll have outright deflation," said Zandi.
                  fed will milk this argument until inflation > 6% and unemployment's back down under 8%.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The inflation vs. deflation debate

                    Yes ... my name is Sun ... I have been a crapaholic since I was a boy. I remember my first trip to the dime store. Yes, way back when before Wal-Mart. My mom bought me a water pistol and some silly putty. My head was spinning. I couldn't wait to get home and lock myself in my room and play until bored and I wanted more crap.

                    When I got older and I was on my own I ate crappy food every meal. I bought a glitzy crappy car I couldn't afford. At first I consumed crappy politics that leaned left arrogantly demanding the goverment should give crap directly to everybody. The Dems were my dealer. Then, as I got older and realized the government was a threat to my abillity to buy more crap I switched to the Repubs who cut my taxs and borrowed money to help build a entire world economy to generate crap. They were incredible using crappy religion to condem those who complained about the crap. They were so subtle about it and so sharp. Sometimes it bothered me that my kids school was crappy and our healthcare was crappy but they kept the crap flowing. It was the golden age and I was ridding high on crap.

                    When I got older and retirement lurked. I wanted to put some money back to I could keep buying crap. It didn't look good but then the internet came and I was amazed that people could buy crap all over the world and have it shipped to their door all on their computers. The flow of crap was amazing and the credit to buy more crap faster started flowing like crazy. I bought stock in the flow of crap and I made money for a long time but then it crashed. It took a while to recover and I started to consider that maybe crap was not a good idea. But I had so much of it and I loved so much.

                    The beginning of the end was when were all starting to grow weary of crap and then this Man became president who understood addiction. He understood my need for crap. He saw it as the American way of life. He was the best friend a crapaholic could have. And when we were attacked and we were scared he made sure we understood that it was okay to go out and buy more crap because that is who we are and that what would make us feel like the Americans the attacker fear. It was at this point that I discovered something that would change the world. Crappy investments. Imagine. Combinning crap with money? What brilliance? What insight? I bought like their was no tomorrow. I convinced myself it WAS for tomorrow. My crap addiction was at an all-time high. Crap was falling out of my garage so I bought a bigger crappier house to put it all. My wife was addicted to crap. We took crappy vacations to crappy casinos all over the country driving our crappy cars and listening to our crappy music. Our life was crap.

                    Now, I have so much crap I don't know what to do. The credit card pushers stopped calling for a while. They got mad and raised my rates to 28% and then away when I couldn't afford more crap. They all say they are too crappy to fail. They are now sending me offers so I can take zero interest loans for one year. I don't know.

                    I wish my Mom would have never bought me that silly putty. I put me on a path to where I am now: a crapaholic. I use to have so much. I use to have such promise. Now, all I have is just crap. I feel like crap. Help me.

                    Comment

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