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Showing the Gulag How It's Done

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  • #16
    Re: Showing the Gulag How It's Done

    Originally posted by BiscayneSunrise View Post
    I'm not so sure I see a civil liberties problem here.

    How is a TV camera on every street corner different than having a cop on every corner? They are monitoring for criminal behavior not harassing law abiding citizens.

    TV monitors are just another form of technology. How is a TV camera different than having police drive in cars to extend their range? Or to use radios to call in help? Or use computers to screen for priors?

    Yes, I understand the slippery slope argument but police have been adding new technologies for decades. Has there been any reduction in civil liberties since the advent of fingerprinting, let's say?
    The cameras might not be conceptually any different than having extra cops driving around....except that it would be more like having a cop driving back and forth on your street watching you and your house all day and night, every day of the year. Would you be indifferent to that?

    It's great to have the police come when you need them, but I'd rather have a society that is safe enough that we don't need to have police or cameras watching all the time.

    I don't really like being watched, do you? It's an ominous or at least vaguely unsettling feeling. It makes one want to retreat indoors to try to have some privacy.

    The fundamental problem is that the progressive zeitgeist of these times has been busy breaking down what it sees as stultifying social limitations...while ignoring the crucial role social limitations play in controlling biological urges. And so we are ending up with a society where what would have been considered crude if not barbaric is now stylish and the norm. The ongoing tatoo fad is one example. Schoolgirls now behave exactly as only sailors and pimps used to - use foul language, tatoo and pierce themselves, fuck anyone on a whim. The progressives and atheists declared that everything is relative and nothing has meaning, so there is no basis for telling anyone not to do anything. And society gets cruder and more vulgar and more illiterate and ignorant and no one feels like they have any basis upon which to object. The social contract is dissolving and the cameras and nanny-state government represent what wiill replace it.

    The other problem is that the progressives have succeeded in imposing their vision of America as nothing but an idea, rather than a society of a particular people, and thus have so atomized us by bringing in the most alien cultures on earth with no expectation that they assimilate that there is no real sense of community anymore. A community doesn't need Big Brother to watch it; it does its own informal policing all the time because everyone feels responsible for and basically cares for everyone else. Neighbors feel comfortable yelling at other neighbors' kids when they're misbehaving. People look out for one another. But that sense of community has been dissolved in the name of a fantasy of multi-ethnic, multi-cultural harmony that just doesn't exist.

    So we let muslims into the country even though some of them want to kill us - and the result is that rather than availing ourselves of the very simple, easy option of excluding muslims as culturally incompatible with us, we feel that morally we must allow them in among us - the progressives have left us with no grounds upon which to object - and thus we sentence ourselves to unbelievably intrusive government searches and surveillance in order to try to prevent them from killing us. Look at London - thousands of cameras everywhere, necessary because London is no longer the capital of a people's nation, but a mere geographic location where a score of alien people scrabble and compete for control and where the young people are the most degenerate, drunken, violent, useless bunch Western civilization has seen in who knows how many centuries.

    So the hell with the cameras...let's get a real solution, which is to get back to real communities based on real, felt affiliation and not progressive fantasy, and to an understanding of the nature of life and society that recognizes that "anything goes" is not a viable worldview upon which to base a society. Everything is not equal. Equality is not the highest value. Some things ARE better than other things. To act as though they aren't is to doom us to eventually being conquered and replaced by a people with a more sensible cultural worldview.

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    • #17
      Re: Showing the Gulag How It's Done

      But Jack Bauer, owner of the city's largest beer and soft drink distributor, calls the network "a great thing." His store hasn't been robbed, he said, since four cameras went up nearby.

      "There's nothing wrong with instilling fear," he said.
      I was rolling with laughter when I read that "Jack Bauer" has "nothing wrong with instilling fear"

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      • #18
        Re: Showing the Gulag How It's Done

        don't see what the big deal is... not like they put a networked device in my home that captures my every move.

        oh, wait.... did that myself...

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        • #19
          Re: Showing the Gulag How It's Done

          Originally posted by Mn_Mark View Post
          The cameras might not be conceptually any different than having extra cops driving around....except that it would be more like having a cop driving back and forth on your street watching you and your house all day and night, every day of the year. Would you be indifferent to that?
          Ich bin ein Londoner. Every movement in the city recorded. Google and Yahoo have agreed to turn in dissident posters in China but don't worry it's not us. As long as we conform, we're OK. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels the noose tightening.

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          • #20
            Re: Showing the Gulag How It's Done

            Originally posted by BiscayneSunrise View Post
            I'm not so sure I see a civil liberties problem here.

            How is a TV camera on every street corner different than having a cop on every corner? They are monitoring for criminal behavior not harassing law abiding citizens.
            Have you ever had a cop on your tail while driving? It's not a comfortable feeling. Even if you're "law abiding," there are a million laws out there, with new ones being added daily. A determined copy can find fault with almost anyone. Even worse, with everything recorded, they could go back and pull up all sorts of irrelevant info to support their case. For example, some "criminal" you don't know might walk up to you and say hello, and you could end up being pulled in for questioning or worse. You might then have a record of "consorting with criminals," that could be used against you in court or even when applying for a job.

            No, cameras in the street are a bad, bad, bad thing, and must be resisted.

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            • #21
              Re: Showing the Gulag How It's Done

              Two works that shed valuable light on this subject are "Above The Law: Police and the Excessive Use of Force," by Jerome Skolnich/James Fyfe, and "Surveil and Punish," by Michel Foucault.

              In dissecting the use of force by the uniformed police, the authors of the first book above, point out that law itself IS force, and that by promulgating excessive amounts and types of law, the makers of the law are using excessive force upon the population. We are not quite the land of the free. . . The uniformed police breathe this atmosphere as well.

              The authors encourage accountability as the only way to check the excessive use of force. So apparently we are doomed :p

              Foucault's work traces the rise of the prison in Western culture from the age of kings to the present. He delves deeply into the "values" that accompanied this rise. The first asylums and the prisons that followed were architecturally based on christian monasteries: a layout that permitted the jailor/abbot/God in the elevated center position to watch the inmates/monks/creatures arrayed in a circle below without being seen. Since the former don't know when the latter is watching, they internalize the watcher's rules to avoid punishment.

              Later in this history, the release of prisoners into the general population gives the state credence to surveil the general population with agents spread throughout same. Thus further encouraging the internalization of "proper" behavior.

              In, at least, most of the population. . .

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              • #22
                Re: Showing the Gulag How It's Done

                Originally posted by metalman View Post
                my point exactly. public spaces are not private.
                Maybe but you have failed to make a critically important distinction.

                Their is a huge distinction between the lack of privacy in a typical, non-surveilled public space, vs. the lack of privacy in a public place that features continuous, recorded surveillance.

                In one the lack of privacy is discontinuous, unsystematic, random, and undocumented. In the other, the lack of privacy is absolute and fully documented. The distinction couldn't be more profound.

                The worst aspect is the documentation (i.e., recordings). Recordings create an impression of objective truth in the mind of your typical human who lacks a critical faculty (i.e. virtually all humans). Unfortunately the reality of video recordings is that they can still be very subjective in many ways. The first problem is that some recordings can be quite open to misinterpretation-- two people can be looking at the same thing and not agree at all on what they are seeing. The second problem is a quality problem-- poor lighting, technical defects, bad angles, etc create tremendous room for error. The third problem-- and probably the most terrifying-- is that where there is documentation, there can also be outright forgery "under color of law", leading to fraud, frame-ups, and grotesque miscarriages of justice.
                Last edited by BuckarooBanzai; June 26, 2009, 10:00 PM.

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                • #23
                  Re: Showing the Gulag How It's Done

                  I prefer they'd just punish real criminals and leave the rest of us alone. And what good is all this "policing" when our courts and penal system are horribly flawed. Just wait, this camera business will be turned into a money making scheme, not crime prevention as advertised. And this is coming from someone who used to have ownership in a CCTV business.

                  Around where I live they are removing a lot of red light cameras because they aren't bringing in enough in fines. Funny, when they were selling the idea to the public, they said it was all about safety.:rolleyes:

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