Iran election crisis...

[cjppjc]

Re: Iranians show how its done...

Look in the other Iranian thread. Metalman posted this video I think.

[oddlots]

Re: Iranians show how its done...

Oops, try this:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...g-footage.html

or - thanks - Metalman posted the original BBC Persia earlier:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/iran/20..._clashes.shtml

[Basil]

Re: Iran election crisis...

If religion, especially religious fundamentalism, has done any good for mankind, what is it?

Yeah, secular dictators tyrants and mass murderers are so much better. See Saddam Hossein, Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. In fact the most secular century in history, the 20th has been the bloodiest, by a very wide margin.

The problem is not religion, it is human beings. They will use religion, economics, communism, capitalism, democracy or any other ideology to advance their own agendas.

[cjppjc]

Re: Iran election crisis...

Yeah, secular dictators tyrants and mass murderers are so much better. See Saddam Hossein, Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. In fact the most secular century in history, the 20th has been the bloodiest, by a very wide margin.

The problem is not religion, it is human beings. They will use religion, economics, communism, capitalism, democracy or any other ideology to advance their own agendas.

This is of course true. As I have pointed out before man is the same always and everywhere. There is no REAL change. Just the appearance of change. JK pointed out the end of salvery was change. A noble thought. But how was it accomplished. Slavery was ended by one group imposing their will on another through war and bloodshed. Nothing changes.

[Wild Style]

Re: Iran election crisis...

Another view of things:

Iran: Some Dots You May Want To Connect

1. Groom an opposition candidate to run against the guy you hate, pay him well and line up your media to back him.

2. During the campaign, sell him as the savior of the bourgeois opposition who lost their money in the revolution. Use your own pollsters and media propaganda to convince his followers that they are going to win by a wide margin.

3. When your guy loses, scream "FRAUD!" It's akin to yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre, inflaming all those disappointed bourgeois counter-revolutionaries. Get them out on the street, setting fires, playing the victim, waving flags, ready-to-go placards, banners, women crying in front of CNN cameras and men yelling angrily into Christiana Amanpour's microphone. Only this time, they're ready to burn their own flag instead of the U.S. flag. I tell ya, it makes great TV for a western audience. (Incidentally, don't take Christiana's reports too seriously. The Amanpours, like many Iranian expats, led a privileged life under the Shah of Iran and lost their ill gotten wealth as a result of the Iranian revolution in '79. Naturally, Christiana was very upset. Later, she married James Rubin, an arch-Zionist, and regained her status, good money and even some fame, this time as a CNN reporter in service to the empire.)

http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publis...le_56031.shtml

someone gets it. I have a LOT of friends from Iran and some living there. It is rich people who oppose the current govt. The masses are with the govt lock step. Look at the rallies for Ahmadinijad and compare them to Musavi's rallies. HUGE difference but as usual western media is keeping the minds of the west as ignorant as ever. Oh and look up Mujahideen al-Khalq

[D-Mack]

Re: Iran election crisis...

someone gets it. I have a LOT of friends from Iran and some living there. It is rich people who oppose the current govt. The masses are with the govt lock step. Look at the rallies for Ahmadinijad and compare them to Musavi's rallies. HUGE difference but as usual western media is keeping the minds of the west as ignorant as ever. Oh and look up Mujahideen al-Khalq

This one ?




edit to add:

It would be nice to keep the names the same, it always was MEK and not MKO

Iran finds US-backed MKO fingermarks in riots
Sun, 21 Jun 2009 04:36:40 GMT
Font size :
MKO Leader Maryam Rajavi has called the MKO as the real winner of Iran's election.

The terrorist Mujahedin Khalq Organization (MKO) has reportedly played a major role in intensifying the recent wave of street violence in Iran.

Iranian security officials reported Saturday that they have identified and arrested a large number of MKO members who were involved in recent riots in Iran's capital.

According to the security officials, the arrested members had confessed that they were extensively trained in Iraq's camp Ashraf to create post-election mayhem in the country.

They had also revealed that they have been given directions by the MKO command post in Britain.

..
http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?i...=351020101#foc

[flintlock]

Re: Iran election crisis...

Good for them, but there is a thin line between the video above and this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1905)

These type things are won or lost on the loyalty of the military and police to their handlers. In places like Iraq, Sadam was able to set up his Guard troops as elites, and they paid him back by crushing any resistance. How long before we see Iranian revolutionary guards in the street instead of the "kinder and gentler" local police?

[oddlots]

Re: Iran election crisis...

Good for them, but there is a thin line between the video above and this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1905)

These type things are won or lost on the loyalty of the military and police to their handlers. In places like Iraq, Sadam was able to set up his Guard troops as elites, and they paid him back by crushing any resistance. How long before we see Iranian revolutionary guards in the street instead of the "kinder and gentler" local police?

Fair point, but I'm not sure these "elite" elements are being held back entirely. The Basji (militia) are out in force, in part I bet to make sure the police perform. From what I'm reading they are the source of most of the injuries and deaths from firearms. (Neda - woman who was depicted dying in the street from a chest wound - was reportedly shot by one who picked her off from the roof of a house.) What you say is still valid though. (Incidentally, my understanding is these are recruited from among criminals. Nice. When will people toss religion and all its "magical" thinking: the "divine" will of God needs to be enforced by psychopaths?)

On the other hand, the willingness of the elite elements to crush such an uprising is proportional to how practical this is i.e., how fearful the population can be made to feel. This in turn is proportional to the determination on the part of the people not to let the opportunity pass. Based on their performance here I'd say they are damned determined.

I'm hoping to see a general strike. You can't shoot people who aren't there.

[Ghent12]

Re: Iran election crisis...

This is of course true. As I have pointed out before man is the same always and everywhere. There is no REAL change. Just the appearance of change. JK pointed out the end of salvery was change. A noble thought. But how was it accomplished. Slavery was ended by one group imposing their will on another through war and bloodshed. Nothing changes.

This was only true in America. Other nations had slaves, but they didn't erupt in civil war over it.

Things do change. You can credit your ability to read to religion, as the desire to spread the word of God was the motivation for the first printing press. One of the major reasons the ability to read even survived the Dark Ages was to read from scripture.

Wanton pessimism can be fun, but don't fall into it. It's a trap.

[iyamwutiam]

Re: Iran election crisis...

This was only true in America. Other nations had slaves, but they didn't erupt in civil war over it.

Things do change. You can credit your ability to read to religion, as the desire to spread the word of God was the motivation for the first printing press. One of the major reasons the ability to read even survived the Dark Ages was to read from scripture.

Wanton pessimism can be fun, but don't fall into it. It's a trap.

You may need to brush up on your history. There was no 'eruption' by the slaves for their freedom in the US. The issue was 'politicized' as slavery -but really it was about the Federal governments precedence over state rights -and we have since then gone from a republic to a centralized state like Napolean proposed.

[cjppjc]

Re: Iran election crisis...

This was only true in America. Other nations had slaves, but they didn't erupt in civil war over it.

Things do change. You can credit your ability to read to religion, as the desire to spread the word of God was the motivation for the first printing press. One of the major reasons the ability to read even survived the Dark Ages was to read from scripture.

Wanton pessimism can be fun, but don't fall into it. It's a trap.

I don't believe I'm engaging in wanton pessimism. I stand by the statement. You know there is still salvery in the world. The nature of man has not changed. It was pointed out earlier the horrific brutality of the Hitlers, etc. There was a time when people said they were living in an age of enlightenment. How's that working out.:eek:

[Master Shake]

Re: Iran election crisis...

picture says 1000 words...

First post in comments section.

2334.
I'm from Tehran (capital of Iran). I think it is our duty to get our votes back & we will try for it more & more. But it is better for Americans to solve their problems & stop meddling in the others countries'. We don't need Obama's protect (which some comments recommend). Where ever USA government has tried to help, lead to a long time war. So please just pray for our success without official interfering in our inner problems.

[metalman]

Re: Iran election crisis...

Where ever USA government has tried to help, lead to a long time war. So please just pray for our success without official interfering in our inner problems.

.....amen!

[LargoWinch]

Re: Iran election crisis...

-removed by LW-

[goadam1]

Re: Iran election crisis...

That's the problem with peaceful demonstrations. They only work when the other side is willing to allow them. Sad.

Our history in Iran is a terrible one, but are you really defending the revolutionary regime. Hey, let's talk about Castro's health plan. Mussolini made the trains run on time.