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  • 30 year bond resultsbeware

    Hey Guys,

    Saw this on Market ticker and its kind of interesting... Would love some input from the itulip folks, would love to hear EJ's/FRED's thoughts as well....

    http://market-ticker.denninger.net/a...ts-Beware.html

    Median yield down, primary dealers took about half and indirect bidders took the other half, basically.

    What? 50% take for foreign central banks on 30y debt at a 4.6ish coupon?

    That makes no sense given what we're being told is coming: massive inflation, maybe even hyperinflation, commodities ramping to the moon, the stock market going to the moon in a hyper-inflationary printing explosion.

    The stock market rocketed on the release. I couldn't make sense out of the initial FX moves, especially in the DX and Yen. Someone was front-running in the financials bigtime as well, with a big ramp for an hour or so prior to the results.

    Folks, if you think hyperinflation is coming, or even serious inflation, you're going to get your head cut off on a 4.6% 30y bond. In fact you could easily lose half or more of your investment, should you need to sell, and your coupon will be half or less of what it should be.

    So how does this make any sense?

    There is only one reason for the FCBs to want this sort of exposure:

    They expect a ramp in the dollar and crushing DEFLATION, as this is the only way that bet will pay off.

    If you're on the other side of this trade in any way, I hope you are putting on some sort of hedge.

    Remember, foreign central banks can FORCE a pull in liquidity and make their desires a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Care to bet against someone who can make their bet pay off?

    That's what I thought.....

    Oh guess what - the primary dealers would like this outcome too......

    PS: If this analysis is correct then we're in for some really NASTY trouble, quite soon. If you're short Ts, short dollars or long equities, your neck is in the guillotine. Better move before the blade falls!
    Since EJ and most folks here (myself included) are betting on inflation, i would like someone to help me make sense of this argument... With these treasury sales results are FCB's betting on deflation? AND if so, can they make it happen? Perhaps we can discuss this data point as i believe EJ likes to look at data and use it to evaluate his thesis....

  • #2
    Re: 30 year bond resultsbeware

    *dons his metalman hat*


    Everyone is wrong, again – 1981 in Reverse Part I: The Great Divide – Eric Janszen

    It’s October 1981, the year IBM launched personal computer, air traffic controllers went on strike and were fired by President Reagan, and Israeli jets destroyed a nuclear plant in Iraq. The annual inflation rate in September was over 12%, a 30 year Treasury bond carried a constant maturity rate of 14.68%, and the Effective Fed Funds Rate hit 15.5% as the Paul Volcker Fed stood on the brake pedal, determined to crash the economy to cut off multiple simultaneous inflation channels -- energy cost-push, supply shock, and the reckless monetary policy of the previous administration.

    Thing is, no one believed it.

    A risk-free government bond promised 14.68% interest for 30 years but no one wanted them. Gold traded between $432 and $453, or $1011 and $1063 in 2009 dollars, well below a peak of $850 – nearly $2000 2009 dollars -- on January 21, 1980.

    With perfect 20/20 hindsight we ask, what was going on the heads of investors then? That 30 year bond produced stellar after-inflation returns for decades, and on a risk-adjusted basis was the best investment of a generation.

    No one wanted it.

    Why did investors collectively not see that the inflation rate was destined to fall? Few believed that the U.S. government was serious about putting the economy through two massive recessions, earning the certain wrath of voters, in order to wring inflation expectations out of the economy. Fixed income investment professionals didn’t believe it, stock market investors didn’t believe it, and certainly the gold bugs didn’t believe it. Some held on for 20 years as gold went down, down, down.

    Just about everyone expected the politicians to chicken out and let inflation go on forever.

    The majority were wrong.
    http://itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9707

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: 30 year bond resultsbeware

      Originally posted by karim0028 View Post
      Hey Guys,

      Saw this on Market ticker and its kind of interesting... Would love some input from the itulip folks, would love to hear EJ's/FRED's thoughts as well....

      http://market-ticker.denninger.net/a...ts-Beware.html



      Since EJ and most folks here (myself included) are betting on inflation, i would like someone to help me make sense of this argument... With these treasury sales results are FCB's betting on deflation? AND if so, can they make it happen? Perhaps we can discuss this data point as i believe EJ likes to look at data and use it to evaluate his thesis....
      i've tried to make sense of denniger's ramblings. can't. his old argument was the fed will not do qe, print money, etc... wrong. won't print to force the dollar to devalue to create inflation... wrong. now what's he saying? who cares.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: 30 year bond resultsbeware

        a: is 11 billion a large auction.

        b. primary dealers have to buy these. don't they?

        c. foreign c.b. have a vested interest in not crashing the u.s. on rising rates. Our cage was rattled and now the dollar needs to save face.

        d We will be buying some of your assets and you won't stop the sale.(can we have some of your farmland, please).

        e. p.r. on a fiat planet.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: 30 year bond resultsbeware

          I barely hear anyone talk about deflation. Even cnbc goes on about inflation and the potential for a bond crash.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: 30 year bond resultsbeware

            Originally posted by Chomsky View Post

            This is one of the first few comments on that thread by cjppjc

            Thank you for this. Let's see what happens. Now Metalman will have another link to use.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: 30 year bond resultsbeware

              Originally posted by goadam1 View Post
              I barely hear anyone talk about deflation. Even cnbc goes on about inflation and the potential for a bond crash.
              My, how times have changed! :p It seems like it was only a week ago that deflation was public enemy #1.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: 30 year bond resultsbeware

                Originally posted by goadam1 View Post
                I barely hear anyone talk about deflation. Even cnbc goes on about inflation and the potential for a bond crash.
                ye of little faith! you're not a believer! you have to believe! you have to believe! you have to believe!

                deflation! deflation! deflation!

                it's everywhere!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: 30 year bond resultsbeware

                  What about q.easing?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: 30 year bond resultsbeware

                    Originally posted by metalman View Post
                    i've tried to make sense of denniger's ramblings. can't. his old argument was the fed will not do qe, print money, etc... wrong. won't print to force the dollar to devalue to create inflation... wrong. now what's he saying? who cares.
                    Dude what conditioner do you use? I like that hair (I have hair envy) lol

                    Give it a few months and most people will say Denniger whos that?

                    jmho

                    PS hey I could be wrong you may have spit ends Ouch!!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: 30 year bond resultsbeware

                      Monetary inflation, si. I run a business and it's nothing but deflation for business. Is free deflation? New technology enables competitors, deflationary. Clients want it for less and faster, deflationary. I can't raise my prices. I need to lower prices to stay competitive. Deflation. I get better tech for cheaper but I pass along the savings. Deflation.

                      I get the idea that devaluing the currency makes inflation, especially when it falls to meet proper demand or returns on investment. But business in America is going though deflation. And then gas will be $5.00 a gallon and god knows what organic milk will cost.

                      And I'm going to say it here. I seriously doubt the world will allow US bonds to crash without seeing what happens with re-flation and and some serious ground work on something resembling de-coupling.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: 30 year bond resultsbeware

                        Originally posted by makimanos View Post
                        What about q.easing?
                        what about q. easing:

                        the great Jim Grant:


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: 30 year bond resultsbeware

                          Originally posted by goadam1 View Post
                          Monetary inflation, si. I run a business and it's nothing but deflation for business. Is free deflation? New technology enables competitors, deflationary. Clients want it for less and faster, deflationary. I can't raise my prices. I need to lower prices to stay competitive. Deflation. I get better tech for cheaper but I pass along the savings. Deflation.

                          I get the idea that devaluing the currency makes inflation, especially when it falls to meet proper demand or returns on investment. But business in America is going though deflation. And then gas will be $5.00 a gallon and god knows what organic milk will cost.

                          And I'm going to say it here. I seriously doubt the world will allow US bonds to crash without seeing what happens with re-flation and and some serious ground work on something resembling de-coupling.
                          not deflation... loss of pricing power. big difference.

                          for you to gain pricing power, your competitors have to go out of biz. don't forget... Fed cuts dollar, Fire sales vs FIRE sales, Duh-flation

                          can't hit every industry at once. grocery stores & restaurants that remain in business in my area... raising prices.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: 30 year bond resultsbeware

                            Originally posted by karim0028 View Post
                            Since EJ and most folks here (myself included) are betting on inflation, i would like someone to help me make sense of this argument... With these treasury sales results are FCB's betting on deflation? AND if so, can they make it happen? Perhaps we can discuss this data point as i believe EJ likes to look at data and use it to evaluate his thesis....
                            this is one reason why the itulip model portfolio is still 70% in t-bills.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: 30 year bond resultsbeware

                              In any case the Fed will defend the 28 year long bond up trent line no matter the cost. They have no other option. They know what the BRIC are up to. They will try to split them using the oil game. The Saudis are off.

                              Comment

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