i'm a libertarian end all, but i'm wondering tonight, what's the free market going to do about this?

[Master Shake]

Re: i'm a libertarian end all, but i'm wondering tonight, what's the free market going to do about t

Sorry - didn't realize I needed to connect all the dots for you.

There was a significant disparity in the number of white kids and black kids attending schools in the 1890s. Before we can examine whether Sowell's data has any meaning for the proposition for which he asserts it, we need to know the percentage of the white and black populations enrolled in school. We also need to know the criteria underlying whether a child is enrolled or not (I am going to assume, for illustrative purposes, that the most able kids tend to be the ones enrolled in school - and while this is not necessarily true, it is at least somewhat likely based on parental occupation/education etc).

Let's say you have two populations, population A and population B, each with 1000 kids. Each population has an average IQ of 100 and exhibits a normal distribution.

If population A enrolls the brightest 80% of its kids in school and population B enrolls the brightest 30% of its kids in school, which school going exhibit a higher average IQ?

Sowell addressed this knee-jerk criticism in another essay.

While there are examples of schools where this happens in our own time-- both public and private, secular and religious-- we can also go back nearly a hundred years and find the same phenomenon. Back in 1899, in Washington, D. C., there were four academic public high schools-- one black and three white.¹ In standardized tests given that year, students in the black high school averaged higher test scores than students in two of the three white high schools.²

This was not a fluke. It so happens that I have followed 85 years of the history of this black high school-- from 1870 to 1955 --and found it repeatedly equalling or exceeding national norms on standardized tests.³ In the 1890s, it was called The M Street School and after 1916 it was renamed Dunbar High School but its academic performances on standardized tests remained good on into the mid-1950s.

When I first published this information in 1974, those few educators who responded at all dismissed the relevance of these findings by saying that these were "middle class" children and therefore their experience was not "relevant" to the education of low-income minority children. Those who said this had no factual data on the incomes or occupations of the parents of these children-- and I did.

The problem, however, was not that these dismissive educators did not have evidence. The more fundamental problem was that they saw no need for evidence. According to their dogmas, children who did well on standardized tests were middle class. These children did well on such tests, therefore they were middle class.

Lack of evidence is not the problem. There was evidence on the occupations of the parents of the children at this school as far back in the early 1890s. As of academic year 1892-93, there were 83 known occupations of the parents of the children attending The M Street School. Of these occupations, 51 were laborers and one was a doctor.⁴ That doesn't sound very middle class to me.

Over the years, a significant black middle class did develop in Washington and no doubt most of them sent their children to the M Street School or to Dunbar High School, as it was later called. But that is wholly different from saying that most of the children at that school came from middle-class homes.

During the later period, for which I collected data, there were far more children whose mothers were maids than there were whose fathers were doctors. For many years, there was only one academic high school for blacks in the District of Columbia and, as late as 1948, one-third of all black youngsters attending high school in Washington attended Dunbar High School. So this was not a "selective" school in the sense in which we normally use that term-- there were no tests to take to get in, for example-- even though there was undoubtedly self-selection in the sense that students who were serious went to Dunbar and those who were not had other places where they could while away their time, without having to meet high academic standards. (A vocational high school for blacks was opened in Washington in 1902).⁵

http://www.tsowell.com/speducat.html

[Munger]

Re: i'm a libertarian end all, but i'm wondering tonight, what's the free market going to do about t

Sowell addressed this knee-jerk criticism in another essay.

While there are examples of schools where this happens in our own time-- both public and private, secular and religious-- we can also go back nearly a hundred years and find the same phenomenon. Back in 1899, in Washington, D. C., there were four academic public high schools-- one black and three white.¹ In standardized tests given that year, students in the black high school averaged higher test scores than students in two of the three white high schools.²

This was not a fluke. It so happens that I have followed 85 years of the history of this black high school-- from 1870 to 1955 --and found it repeatedly equalling or exceeding national norms on standardized tests.³ In the 1890s, it was called The M Street School and after 1916 it was renamed Dunbar High School but its academic performances on standardized tests remained good on into the mid-1950s.

When I first published this information in 1974, those few educators who responded at all dismissed the relevance of these findings by saying that these were "middle class" children and therefore their experience was not "relevant" to the education of low-income minority children. Those who said this had no factual data on the incomes or occupations of the parents of these children-- and I did.

The problem, however, was not that these dismissive educators did not have evidence. The more fundamental problem was that they saw no need for evidence. According to their dogmas, children who did well on standardized tests were middle class. These children did well on such tests, therefore they were middle class.

Lack of evidence is not the problem. There was evidence on the occupations of the parents of the children at this school as far back in the early 1890s. As of academic year 1892-93, there were 83 known occupations of the parents of the children attending The M Street School. Of these occupations, 51 were laborers and one was a doctor.⁴ That doesn't sound very middle class to me.

Over the years, a significant black middle class did develop in Washington and no doubt most of them sent their children to the M Street School or to Dunbar High School, as it was later called. But that is wholly different from saying that most of the children at that school came from middle-class homes.

During the later period, for which I collected data, there were far more children whose mothers were maids than there were whose fathers were doctors. For many years, there was only one academic high school for blacks in the District of Columbia and, as late as 1948, one-third of all black youngsters attending high school in Washington attended Dunbar High School. So this was not a "selective" school in the sense in which we normally use that term-- there were no tests to take to get in, for example-- even though there was undoubtedly self-selection in the sense that students who were serious went to Dunbar and those who were not had other places where they could while away their time, without having to meet high academic standards. (A vocational high school for blacks was opened in Washington in 1902).⁵

http://www.tsowell.com/speducat.html

I suppose it is knee-jerk to the extent I require seeing necessary data points before I draw conclusions. I see in this newer passage no data for the percentages of white kids vs. nonwhite kids enrolled. No doubt in the 1890s most adults were considered laborers of some sort. This passage attacks a straw man to the extent it addresses the occupation of the parents without addressing the percentages of school-aged kids enrolled.

[Rantly McTirade]

Re: i'm a libertarian end all, but i'm wondering tonight, what's the free market going to do about t

Really? You don't think welfare made fathers optional? You don't think the Great Society created an entitlement mentality? The Section 8 program didn't destroy neighborhoods?

Also, helped sow seeds of later inflation.

It is true that people are unequal in skills and gifts, and that various skills and gifts earn variable economic returns. And the 'drug war' is idiotic as well as ineffective, and should be stopped.But....
Bluntly, and briefly, if you 'act White'(in cultural terms), you'll be alright.
Should be unsurprising in a society(really, an entire visible world) based on 'White' culture.
'White' being the norms, or at least close to them, of Western, primarily christian in spiritual derivation, culture/civilization.
'White' has shamed itself by at times not permitting literal non-whites who wanted to willingly adapt and fully assimilate to 'White' culture and society(black Americans generally in the first half of the 20th century)to do so.
'White' has been degrading itself for about 40 years by prostrating itself before hostile alternatives(geto culture, multiculturalism generally, a clearly hostile-if clearly inferior and ignorant-Islam in Europe[ minimal in the US, so far],unchecked, and even encouraged, illegal immigration) and not just refusing to defend itself and assert its relative superiority(superiority does not equal perfection) but actively participating in the assault upon itself-primarily by attacking and erasing prior cultural normsand also adopting behaviors of the hostile actors.
The stupid empire-building effort is harmful, in financial and other terms, as well.

[Raz]

Re: i'm a libertarian end all, but i'm wondering tonight, what's the free market going to do about t

I haven't forgotten about slavery or Jim Crow. It isn't about politics. I'm not dumb. I wouldn't like to "role" back the Civil Rights Act or Voting Rights Act.

If you want to discuss the community cohesion, crime, single parent households, etc. of minority communities earlier in the 20th century as compared to after the rise of the welfare state, government housing projects, etc. which came later I'd be happy to oblige. If you're going to ask stupid loaded questions, imply I'm racist, insinuate I'm intellectually lacking, etc. then I have little to say to you.

EDIT: Actually, if you truly are interested in something more than an internet insult-fest a good place to start is with the works of Thomas Sowell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell

Well, Judas, don't take santafe too personally.

He's very good at insulting others as well - when his emotions take control of his thought processes - or he doesn't want to deal with historical facts. Of course there's always the chance that he's a congenital asshole.

EXAMPLE:

Quote:

Originally Posted by santafe2 How do you find time to post here? You'd be better served ferreting out and drowning witches. In case I'm not being clear, this is the craziest post I've seen by a paid subscriber on iTulip. Seriously, find a psychologist or join AA if that's the issue. Please never assume you can pay a few hundred dollars and earn the right to post this nonsense here.

Thank you for your arrogant and insulting reply. You have saved me from any further effort to inform your ignorant self - even on another forum. Perhaps you should read the New Testament - and some history not authored by God hating pseudo-intellectuals.
As for me I don't plan to cast any more pearls before swine.:mad:

Raz

[santafe2]

Re: i'm a libertarian end all, but i'm wondering tonight, what's the free market going to do about t

Well, Judas, don't take santafe too personally.

Nice, I now have a personal stalker.

[Raz]

Re: i'm a libertarian end all, but i'm wondering tonight, what's the free market going to do about t

Nice, I now have a personal stalker.

Well santafe, you hired him - and you can fire him.
All it takes is an apology. Nothing elaborate; "I apologize" will do.

Stalker works for very little and is never too proud to forgive - but the offender must ask.

[santafe2]

Re: i'm a libertarian end all, but i'm wondering tonight, what's the free market going to do about t

Well santafe, you hired him - and you can fire him.
All it takes is an apology. Nothing elaborate; "I apologize" will do.

Stalker works for very little and is never too proud to forgive - but the offender must ask.

OK, have it your way. My ignore list was empty anyway. Someone else can PM me and let me know if you've apologized and stopped your stalking. Who knows, maybe you'll grow up some day.

[Raz]

Re: i'm a libertarian end all, but i'm wondering tonight, what's the free market going to do about t

OK, have it your way. My ignore list was empty anyway. Someone else can PM me and let me know if you've apologized and stopped your stalking. Who knows, maybe you'll grow up some day.

You're all heart, santafe. A real prince of a guy.

No matter how arrogant and insulting you are, no matter how much gratuitous rudeness you dispense, you never allow yourself to even consider that your remarks were uncalled for.

Maybe you'll wise up one day.

[flintlock]

Re: i'm a libertarian end all, but i'm wondering tonight, what's the free market going to do about t

The War on Poverty? Well it certainly hasn't succeeded. I personally think the approach has hurt all the poor, of any race. If just by making it too easy to remain "poor".

And Thomas Sowell is a very smart man. I wouldn't discount what he has to say too quickly.

[flintlock]

Re: i'm a libertarian end all, but i'm wondering tonight, what's the free market going to do about t

Flintlock,

You are forgetting that by having a society based on democracy and votes, the effect is the creation of an inalienable commodity in every warm breathing body: a vote.

Is it so surprising that votes can be cultivated in a similar manner to commercially farmed pigs?

No, I'm not surprised at all. As a matter of fact, I'm surprised the system has lasted as long as it has.

[metalman]

Re: i'm a libertarian end all, but i'm wondering tonight, what's the free market going to do about t

not everyone starts on 3rd base. what can the free market do for those who start on 1st with lead weights on their ankles?

goes without saying if these kids had good parents they'd be fine, poor or not.

this kid was abused from day one.

metalman's definition of child abuse includes letting your kid get fat and not making sure he or she gets a good education.

the problem is culture not race... but it looks like race because of the association of race with culture.

Real median income between 2002 and 2003...
Non-Hispanic white households (about $48,000)
Black households (about $30,000)
Asian households (about $55,500)

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...th/002484.html

throw 10 poor young white families into the apartment building and 20 yrs later you'll get 20 skinny, well-educated kids sending $$$ back to mom and dad.

throw 10 poor young black families into the apartment building next door and 20 yrs later you'll get 5 skinny, well-educated kids sending $$$ back to mom and dad.

throw 10 poor young asian families into an apartment building next door and 20 yrs later you get 40 skinny, well-educated kids sending $$$ back to mom and dad.

it is shameful in asian society to not take care of your children. unforgivable. the community will shun you. also, the community will help you.

[aaron]

Re: i'm a libertarian end all, but i'm wondering tonight, what's the free market going to do about t

I agree with you. It is culture, not race. Certain cultures need to die a Darwinian death, but government stands in the way.

People who should give birth to children do not.
People who should never have kids, birth too many.

Throwing more and more money at the problem has not worked, and I do not see it working in the future.

After reading "Outliers", by Malcolm Gladwell, I believe that year-round school (no summer vacation) would solve most of these problems. Kids would come out of high school on equal footing. If they are in school all day, 6 days a week, they get an education despite their shitty parents. (read the book).

[t12357]

Re: i'm a libertarian end all, but i'm wondering tonight, what's the free market going to do about t

I am not sure if someone already has posted the links below:

http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/index.html

I am not sure either if itulip "high council" will approve this post or if it is too "wacko" or "tin foil" or "conspiracy theory," yada, yada, yada, if it is so be it.

I did not finished reading the e-book but what I read seems to be very well documented at least, though one may choose to close their eyes if that suits them better.

Free e-book

http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com.../DDDoA.sml.pdf