Detroit .. third world country?

[Digidiver]

Re: Detroit .. third world country?

So what I'm hearing you saying is you're not really poor until you are reduced to the level of a dog. Interesting viewpoint. You should go live in Nepal or the Philippines (or Detroit) for a year. It might give you a real appreciation for what poverty is.

[thunderdownunder]

Re: Detroit .. third world country?

Oh my God !!!
Im so insular!!!
I fly to the US yearly - 23 December - Quantas seat 1a, get off at LAX after 14 hrs, taxi drive to John Wayne, connect to Denver- get my Rm's( Nice Boots boys) polished by the same guy in the main hall and tip him $20 on top ( he is a great conversationalist and remembers me by name every year) -get on the underground train for connection to Aspen- get off and admire the many private jets parked up- get a Taxi to the Swiss chalet across the road from the bus terminal & next to Nells - park my gear in the same ground floor room - get my tickets for 21 days - say Hi to all - and ski the tops off the triple black diamonds - come 4 pm - shower, change and down to Nells for a few brewskys over looking the external spa baths- then on to any number of great restaurants/ bars. You even love the Aussies as outside the Swiss chalet is a footy field which hosts a particular Aussie home game. Then for the last week I go visit Vegas but spend most of the time in Boulder or even better, Searchlight NV at Troubles Casino/ pub and take every one down ( and their money) playing that great 9 pin bowls in the three lanes

I love the USA and its open people - absolutely

Then you show me Photos I can believe exist in America - I'm Frigging devastated.

I'm no fool -but back up here - Vegas is a little seedy in parts around the old town, Aspen /Snowmass is a little up its self with all its fairy lights and Wankers crying at Nells because they only have $10 mill in assets and can't afford a private jet. Denver has the best Airport in the World- no arguments

And you show me a part of America, in Photos, won't believe exists in a country of the free, filled with people I would back with my last dollar, People who have given us so much, watched our backs and backed up when it got a little out of hand, letting us prosper in the future.

What in God's Name would have happened for you to even allow such things
Ive never contemplated scenes so bad.

You must stop and think - withdraw from being the worlds "policeman" - energize and take stock of what is important for your country - Treat your poor better than you treat your pets - spread your top heavy wealth down - renew and rebuild - share and NEVER allow such 4th world things in the future, a Future you have.
Metalman and Lukester should get together, bury the hatchet and Start something meaningful.

What I've seen is just NOT the America it was or was meant to be
For gods sake do SOMETHING - that is simply Appalling and visually distressing.

I am Bereft that this has been allowed to happen to HOPE in Land of the Free

With Love from an Aussie who thought you were doing OK - up until I seen that.

Maybe the US media should stop staring at it's dick, especially on this day twenty years ago, when some Chinese students gave their lives for a better country under the tracks of tanks and latter to be burnt in pushed up heaps with flame throwers. Thats change I can believe in as history shows.

[touchring]

Re: Detroit .. third world country?

So what I'm hearing you saying is you're not really poor until you are reduced to the level of a dog. Interesting viewpoint. You should go live in Nepal or the Philippines (or Detroit) for a year. It might give you a real appreciation for what poverty is.

Not really, but I'm just making comparisons from what I see, so i can only judge as a tourist or business visitor.

[Sapiens]

Re: Detroit .. third world country?

The only problem is how to prevent them getting out of Detroit and running all over the US. ;)

Thanks for the belly laugh!

[lurker]

Re: Detroit .. third world country?

Between all the back-slapping about how the poor in America don't know how "lucky" they are (compared to 3rd world countries) I'd like to add that in my opinion, part of what defines poverty is a lack of self-determination.

If you're poor in the US you might be fed and clothed
but you also might have a hell of a hard time improving your lot in life. Social mobility is pretty low here, and despite how we like to think of the country as a meritocracy life is generally stacked against those who start out poor.

That's not to say it can't be done, but the tax code, cost of higher education and cost of (or unavailability of ) healthcare have created a rentier economy where becoming wealthy is pretty easy provided one starts out wealthy.

Social mobility is greater in most other developed nations in part due to
- universal healthcare
- better funded and better run education systems
- lower cost of higher education

[Master Shake]

Re: Detroit .. third world country?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=a7IYfjQkC2RM

Does anyone else think that Detroit is transitioning into a 3rd world country all of its own accord?

32% graduation rate.. 1/3 of its population in poverty.

Yikes .. what a scary place it must be to live.

Look at any large American city that is majority black and which has been run by Democrats for the past several decades and you'll see a lot of similarities to Detroit. They may not be quite as bad, but they're getting there.

[BK]

Re: Detroit .. third world country -

Yes. Politicians have turned once great Manufacturing Towns into Great Government Sponsor Social Service Program towns. Any big old city that lost its manufacturing companies - the only big industry left is government jobs and government programs.

So, the Government employees do what ever they can to boost enrollment in Government programs. Look at the once great city of New Haven- CT. Where they even issue identification cards for undocumented immigrants? What would motivate government employees and officials to do this - their empathy for the common man - their hope for bettering the lives of immigrants - OR MONEY. The higher your High School Drop out rate and the lower your test scores the more Money flows into your City from the States general fund. Government Money to cover the expenses of uninsured who use the Cities Hospitals

Real Estate owners in these cities start relying Section 8 Housing vouchers for their income. Gloucester Massachusetts turned to Section 8 housing when the Fishing Industry stopped supporting the large fishing fleets. Now Drug Addiction is one of Gloucester's claim to fame.

Dead Manufacturing Cities become Political Power bases for Political parties - there seems to be a high correlation to dead Manufacturing Cities generally voting for Democrats and seem to be usually run by Democrat Politicians . The Politicians even forced banks to increase their Real Estate lending into these cities. First the Clinton Administration expanded the Community Reinvestment Act to force Banks to make more loans to Citizens of these Inner City Neighborhoods. In 1994-95 President Obama was the Lawyer for an ACORN Law suit that forced Citi Bank to expand lending in these dead Manufacturing Cities (and other inner Cities) . I'm sure that Real Estate Collateral in the Inner Cities of American is not helping Citi Banks crumbling balance sheet. Forcing Real Estate Investment in Inner Cities is a great way to Fund the Political Campaigns for Politicians.

So, Don't look to any Politicians to fix these Cities - they have them just as they like them - DEPENDENT on MORE and MORE Government subsidies.

[touchring]

Re: Detroit .. third world country -

So, the Government employees do what ever they can to boost enrollment in Government programs. Look at the once great city of New Haven- CT. Where they even issue identification cards for undocumented immigrants? What would motivate government employees and officials to do this - their empathy for the common man - their hope for bettering the lives of immigrants - OR MONEY. The higher your High School Drop out rate and the lower your test scores the more Money flows into your City from the States general fund. Government Money to cover the expenses of uninsured who use the Cities Hospitals

Won't be for long, unless the world economy crashes, i don't think the dollar can last till 2012.

China is now getting more confident by the day that social chaos will not break out without supporting the dollar.

[santafe2]

Re: Detroit .. third world country?

Between all the back-slapping about how the poor in America don't know how "lucky" they are (compared to 3rd world countries) I'd like to add that in my opinion, part of what defines poverty is a lack of self-determination.

If you're poor in the US you might be fed and clothed
but you also might have a hell of a hard time improving your lot in life. Social mobility is pretty low here, and despite how we like to think of the country as a meritocracy life is generally stacked against those who start out poor.

That's not to say it can't be done, but the tax code, cost of higher education and cost of (or unavailability of ) healthcare have created a rentier economy where becoming wealthy is pretty easy provided one starts out wealthy.

Social mobility is greater in most other developed nations in part due to
- universal healthcare
- better funded and better run education systems
- lower cost of higher education

If you live somewhere other than the US I guess I'll just say you're entitled to your opinion but if you live here, I absolutely don't get your argument.

Some schools are nearly free in the US. In New Mexico, our state universities have 100% scholarships for high school graduates with a B average. Arizona has similar programs. I'm sure other states also have similar programs. One of my daughter's friends is getting her MD - for free with a promise to practice in state for 10 years after school.

Health care in the US is certainly less than great if you work at Walmart or for a small company that doesn't provide it but if you took advantage of an education and chose a field with real jobs, (i.e. maybe not philosophy), you'll have a good job, health care and upward mobility, (if that's what you want).

The tax system in the US is designed to support entrepreneurs. But even if you're not an entrepreneur, it's hardly oppressive with a top rate of about 40%, (Federal, SS, Med). If you make 82,250 or less it's about 24% average...and we haven't even talked about deductions so the real rate is closer to 20%. If you live in a state, county or city with high taxes - move out of there.

Upward mobility anywhere is a complete pain in the ass. It's best accomplished by having a profession or some entrepreneurial skills and some vision regarding where you want to be and what you're willing to sacrifice today to get there. I don't want to come off as a US flag waver because we've got plenty of our own problems - I just don't think upward mobility is one of them.

[hayekvindicated]

Re: Detroit .. third world country?

Between all the back-slapping about how the poor in America don't know how "lucky" they are (compared to 3rd world countries) I'd like to add that in my opinion, part of what defines poverty is a lack of self-determination.

If you're poor in the US you might be fed and clothed
but you also might have a hell of a hard time improving your lot in life. Social mobility is pretty low here, and despite how we like to think of the country as a meritocracy life is generally stacked against those who start out poor.

That's not to say it can't be done, but the tax code, cost of higher education and cost of (or unavailability of ) healthcare have created a rentier economy where becoming wealthy is pretty easy provided one starts out wealthy.

Social mobility is greater in most other developed nations in part due to
- universal healthcare
- better funded and better run education systems
- lower cost of higher education

So in order to have social mobility you've got to have a massive welfare state? That's funny - 19th century America was far more socially mobile and the welfare state didn't exist. Rockefeller, Carnegie, Vanderbilt were all self-made men who started with nothing. Carnegie actually came to the US with an impoverished large Scottish family that lived in a single room. At age 13 he worked 16 hours a day, six days a week for $1.25 a week back in the 1840s. When he had amassed his fortune, he was worth $500 million. Carnegie got no welfare state benefits and free nothing.

The idea that you need a massive welfare state for social mobility is nonsense. There is more welfare state in Europe than in the US and there is no more social mobility here. The best example of this is France - the same elite perpetuates itself one generation after the next and social mobility is almost zero.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Detroit .. third world country?

Oh my God !!!
Im so insular!!!
I fly to the US yearly - 23 December - Quantas seat 1a, get off at LAX after 14 hrs, taxi drive to John Wayne, connect to Denver- get my Rm's( Nice Boots boys) polished by the same guy in the main hall and tip him $20 on top ( he is a great conversationalist and remembers me by name every year) -get on the underground train for connection to Aspen- get off and admire the many private jets parked up- get a Taxi to the Swiss chalet across the road from the bus terminal & next to Nells - park my gear in the same ground floor room - get my tickets for 21 days - say Hi to all - and ski the tops off the triple black diamonds - come 4 pm - shower, change and down to Nells for a few brewskys over looking the external spa baths- then on to any number of great restaurants/ bars. You even love the Aussies as outside the Swiss chalet is a footy field which hosts a particular Aussie home game. Then for the last week I go visit Vegas but spend most of the time in Boulder or even better, Searchlight NV at Troubles Casino/ pub and take every one down ( and their money) playing that great 9 pin bowls in the three lanes

I love the USA and its open people - absolutely

Then you show me Photos I can believe exist in America - I'm Frigging devastated.

I'm no fool -but back up here - Vegas is a little seedy in parts around the old town, Aspen /Snowmass is a little up its self with all its fairy lights and Wankers crying at Nells because they only have $10 mill in assets and can't afford a private jet. Denver has the best Airport in the World- no arguments

And you show me a part of America, in Photos, won't believe exists in a country of the free, filled with people I would back with my last dollar, People who have given us so much, watched our backs and backed up when it got a little out of hand, letting us prosper in the future.

What in God's Name would have happened for you to even allow such things
Ive never contemplated scenes so bad.

You must stop and think - withdraw from being the worlds "policeman" - energize and take stock of what is important for your country - Treat your poor better than you treat your pets - spread your top heavy wealth down - renew and rebuild - share and NEVER allow such 4th world things in the future, a Future you have.
Metalman and Lukester should get together, bury the hatchet and Start something meaningful.

What I've seen is just NOT the America it was or was meant to be
For gods sake do SOMETHING - that is simply Appalling and visually distressing.

I am Bereft that this has been allowed to happen to HOPE in Land of the Free

With Love from an Aussie who thought you were doing OK - up until I seen that.

Maybe the US media should stop staring at it's dick, especially on this day twenty years ago, when some Chinese students gave their lives for a better country under the tracks of tanks and latter to be burnt in pushed up heaps with flame throwers. Thats change I can believe in as history shows.

Thanks for this. It was just what this thread needed.

[Guest]

Re: Detroit .. third world country?

Oh sweet heavens. That meal looks so freaking good. I'm salivating like a slobbering mutt just looking at that spread.

a meal looks like this:

[metalman]

Re: Detroit .. third world country -

Yes. Politicians have turned once great Manufacturing Towns into Great Government Sponsor Social Service Program towns. Any big old city that lost its manufacturing companies - the only big industry left is government jobs and government programs.

So, the Government employees do what ever they can to boost enrollment in Government programs. Look at the once great city of New Haven- CT. Where they even issue identification cards for undocumented immigrants? What would motivate government employees and officials to do this - their empathy for the common man - their hope for bettering the lives of immigrants - OR MONEY. The higher your High School Drop out rate and the lower your test scores the more Money flows into your City from the States general fund. Government Money to cover the expenses of uninsured who use the Cities Hospitals

Real Estate owners in these cities start relying Section 8 Housing vouchers for their income. Gloucester Massachusetts turned to Section 8 housing when the Fishing Industry stopped supporting the large fishing fleets. Now Drug Addiction is one of Gloucester's claim to fame.

Dead Manufacturing Cities become Political Power bases for Political parties - there seems to be a high correlation to dead Manufacturing Cities generally voting for Democrats and seem to be usually run by Democrat Politicians . The Politicians even forced banks to increase their Real Estate lending into these cities. First the Clinton Administration expanded the Community Reinvestment Act to force Banks to make more loans to Citizens of these Inner City Neighborhoods. In 1994-95 President Obama was the Lawyer for an ACORN Law suit that forced Citi Bank to expand lending in these dead Manufacturing Cities (and other inner Cities) . I'm sure that Real Estate Collateral in the Inner Cities of American is not helping Citi Banks crumbling balance sheet. Forcing Real Estate Investment in Inner Cities is a great way to Fund the Political Campaigns for Politicians.

So, Don't look to any Politicians to fix these Cities - they have them just as they like them - DEPENDENT on MORE and MORE Government subsidies.

i've missed you, man! where you been?

[Slimprofits]

Re: Detroit .. third world country?

The various states gave virtually no financial aid to their beleaguered cities and even hindered their efforts to raise revenues, as in New York City and Chicago. As a result individual local governments dealt with the Depression with varying degrees of success...

[..]

Detroit was in the worst trouble because of its reliance on the auto industry and the large amount of debt it had incurred to provide the public services for a 500% expansion in population since 1900.

http://books.google.com/books?id=HjeMj1DB6w8C

page 502 The crash and its aftermath By Barrie A. Wigmore


I wonder if the real heyday of Detroit was in the 20s. Historians refer to the early 50s as the heyday.

[flintlock]

Re: Detroit .. third world country?

If you live somewhere other than the US I guess I'll just say you're entitled to your opinion but if you live here, I absolutely don't get your argument.

Some schools are nearly free in the US. In New Mexico, our state universities have 100% scholarships for high school graduates with a B average. Arizona has similar programs. I'm sure other states also have similar programs. One of my daughter's friends is getting her MD - for free with a promise to practice in state for 10 years after school.

Health care in the US is certainly less than great if you work at Walmart or for a small company that doesn't provide it but if you took advantage of an education and chose a field with real jobs, (i.e. maybe not philosophy), you'll have a good job, health care and upward mobility, (if that's what you want).

The tax system in the US is designed to support entrepreneurs. But even if you're not an entrepreneur, it's hardly oppressive with a top rate of about 40%, (Federal, SS, Med). If you make 82,250 or less it's about 24% average...and we haven't even talked about deductions so the real rate is closer to 20%. If you live in a state, county or city with high taxes - move out of there.

Upward mobility anywhere is a complete pain in the ass. It's best accomplished by having a profession or some entrepreneurial skills and some vision regarding where you want to be and what you're willing to sacrifice today to get there. I don't want to come off as a US flag waver because we've got plenty of our own problems - I just don't think upward mobility is one of them.

I agree with you with the exception about taxes not being oppressive. People tend to concentrate on only income taxes, but when you consider every tax, even low wage earners pay too much. Try combining Income taxes with , state taxes, SS tax, medicare, unemployment, city taxes, property tax, car tag tax, cell phone tax, home phone taxes, sales taxes, business taxes, building permits, business licenses, death tax, real estate taxes when you buy property, various other licensing and other govt fees. Then add in the imbedded cost of corporate taxes on the goods and services we purchase. We all pay over 50% in most cases. The government is just good at hiding this fact and had brainwashed us into believing only Federal income tax is a tax.

But they affect us all, so I don't see it having anything to do with economic mobility. Just pointing out that taxes are ridiculous when compared to earlier times in history.