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"as gm goes, so goes the nation": bill gross

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  • "as gm goes, so goes the nation": bill gross

    i thought it was worth revisiting a prescient column by bill gross, written 3 years ago, in may, '06.
    http://www.pimco.com/LeftNav/Feature...O+May+2006.htm

    a few highlights [emphasis added]:

    "... General Motors is a canary in this country’s economic coal mine; a forerunner for what’s to come for the broader economy. Their mistakes have resembled this nation’s mistakes; their problems will be our future problems. GM commands the headlines today, but as General Motors goes, so goes the nation. Following their progress over the next few months and years will be like getting a 2010 Wall Street Journal in June of 2006.... If the U.S. and General Motors have similar flaws and indeed symbiotic fates, they appear to be conjoined primarily by the uncompetitiveness of their existing labor cost structures and the onerous burden of their future healthcare and pension liabilities. That is not to say that other automobile manufacturers or countries don’t share similar characteristics: they do – but GM and the U.S. are compared here because of their historical dominance and therefore the influence that they will have on investment markets as they struggle to adjust. If GM is a canary, let’s hope for the canary’s long life, but be mindful of its chirping deep in the mineshaft of future events that speak to broader implications for the U.S. economy.

    Because diminished labor cost competitiveness and excessive future unreserved liabilities are descriptive of both GM and the U.S. economy, GM’s efforts to survive and ultimately prosper should be our own as well."

    and

    "The current attempt on the part of GM to address the high cost of its labor draws a comparison to potential future U.S. efforts to do so via currency devaluation. While a company must deal directly with its employees and or its unions in order to lower wage/benefit expenses, a country – certainly a capitalistic oriented one – goes about it in another way. By depreciating the dollar, U.S. Treasury or Federal Reserve policies aimed in that direction explicitly do the same thing."

    and

    "Perhaps the most significant comparison between GM and the U.S. economy lies in the recognition of enormous unfunded liabilities in healthcare and pensions. Reportedly $1500 of every GM car sold in dealer showrooms goes to pay for current and future health benefits of existing and retired workers, a sum totaling nearly $60 billion. The total future healthcare liability for all U.S. citizens can be measured in the tens of trillions."

    and

    "Owners of these liabilities (either existing/future debt holders, or tax paying corporations/citizens) will likely be the sacrificial lambs of the future. Investors, therefore, should factor in an increasing propensity for higher inflation in future years as debt principal is eroded much like the shaved edges of a Roman coin. Higher taxes, as well, are just around the corner. Finally, currency devaluation effected through a low Fed Funds policy vs. competitor nations and/or global policy coordination should apply the coup de grace for foreign holders of U.S. liabilities. Chinese, Japanese, OPEC, and other substantive holders of U.S. Treasuries will have two ways to lose in future years: they will watch U.S. inflation erode their principal and on top of that the real dollar value of their global purchasing power will decline as the dollar sinks. Actually, the same applies to U.S. citizens although the decline in global purchasing power can be masked by domestic asset appreciation in the short-term (houses, stocks)." [or not-jk]

  • #2
    Re: "as gm goes, so goes the nation": bill gross

    Originally posted by jk View Post
    i thought it was worth revisiting a prescient column by bill gross, written 3 years ago, in may, '06.
    http://www.pimco.com/LeftNav/Feature...O+May+2006.htm

    a few highlights [emphasis added]:

    "... General Motors is a canary in this country’s economic coal mine; a forerunner for what’s to come for the broader economy. Their mistakes have resembled this nation’s mistakes; their problems will be our future problems. GM commands the headlines today, but as General Motors goes, so goes the nation. Following their progress over the next few months and years will be like getting a 2010 Wall Street Journal in June of 2006.... If the U.S. and General Motors have similar flaws and indeed symbiotic fates, they appear to be conjoined primarily by the uncompetitiveness of their existing labor cost structures and the onerous burden of their future healthcare and pension liabilities. That is not to say that other automobile manufacturers or countries don’t share similar characteristics: they do – but GM and the U.S. are compared here because of their historical dominance and therefore the influence that they will have on investment markets as they struggle to adjust. If GM is a canary, let’s hope for the canary’s long life, but be mindful of its chirping deep in the mineshaft of future events that speak to broader implications for the U.S. economy.

    Because diminished labor cost competitiveness and excessive future unreserved liabilities are descriptive of both GM and the U.S. economy, GM’s efforts to survive and ultimately prosper should be our own as well."

    and

    "The current attempt on the part of GM to address the high cost of its labor draws a comparison to potential future U.S. efforts to do so via currency devaluation. While a company must deal directly with its employees and or its unions in order to lower wage/benefit expenses, a country – certainly a capitalistic oriented one – goes about it in another way. By depreciating the dollar, U.S. Treasury or Federal Reserve policies aimed in that direction explicitly do the same thing."

    and

    "Perhaps the most significant comparison between GM and the U.S. economy lies in the recognition of enormous unfunded liabilities in healthcare and pensions. Reportedly $1500 of every GM car sold in dealer showrooms goes to pay for current and future health benefits of existing and retired workers, a sum totaling nearly $60 billion. The total future healthcare liability for all U.S. citizens can be measured in the tens of trillions."

    and

    "Owners of these liabilities (either existing/future debt holders, or tax paying corporations/citizens) will likely be the sacrificial lambs of the future. Investors, therefore, should factor in an increasing propensity for higher inflation in future years as debt principal is eroded much like the shaved edges of a Roman coin. Higher taxes, as well, are just around the corner. Finally, currency devaluation effected through a low Fed Funds policy vs. competitor nations and/or global policy coordination should apply the coup de grace for foreign holders of U.S. liabilities. Chinese, Japanese, OPEC, and other substantive holders of U.S. Treasuries will have two ways to lose in future years: they will watch U.S. inflation erode their principal and on top of that the real dollar value of their global purchasing power will decline as the dollar sinks. Actually, the same applies to U.S. citizens although the decline in global purchasing power can be masked by domestic asset appreciation in the short-term (houses, stocks)." [or not-jk]
    Thanks for posting this, jk.

    I don't like Bill Gross. IMHO he's a self-serving asshole if there ever was one, but he's a very smart (and prescient) self-serving asshole.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: "as gm goes, so goes the nation": bill gross

      Originally posted by Raz View Post
      Thanks for posting this, jk.

      I don't like Bill Gross. IMHO he's a self-serving asshole if there ever was one, but he's a very smart (and prescient) self-serving asshole.
      i used to read his monthly columns regularly, before he became an unofficial gov't spokesman [or a self-serving asshole].

      and as gm goes, so goes the nation. take a look at the column itself, where he lays out all the steps that he thought gm needed to take [and-we now know- didn't], and all the parallel steps the u.s. needs to take [and isn't].

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: "as gm goes, so goes the nation": bill gross

        Where does he mention FIRE?

        Isn't EJ calling GM a bank that manufactures cars?

        And where is Ford compared to Crysler and GM, what happened to pay your workers high wages so they can buy your stuff?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: "as gm goes, so goes the nation": bill gross

          Originally posted by jk View Post
          i used to read his monthly columns regularly, before he became an unofficial gov't spokesman [or a self-serving asshole].

          and as gm goes, so goes the nation. take a look at the column itself, where he lays out all the steps that he thought gm needed to take [and-we now know- didn't], and all the parallel steps the u.s. needs to take [and isn't].
          Neither Reuters nor Bloomberg have picked up on this so far, but the NYT is reporting as follows early this morning:
          GM bankruptcy plan clears bondholder hurdle

          Agreement over debt swap clears final obstacle to orderly bankruptcy

          By Nick Bunkley

          updated 3:05 a.m. ET May 31, 2009

          DETROIT - General Motors’ bondholders finished voting Saturday on the company’s plan to exchange their debt for an ownership stake as high as 25 percent in G.M., the final obstacle to an orderly bankruptcy for the ailing carmaker.

          Bondholders with slightly more than 50 percent of G.M.’s $27.2 billion in bond debt agreed to support the plan by the deadline of 5 p.m., according to people briefed on the matter. Among the backers was a committee of large investors holding about 20 percent of G.M.’s outstanding bonds.

          G.M. offered the bondholders the opportunity to take a larger stake in the company after they had overwhelmingly rejected a previous exchange offer.

          Having at least half of them agree to support the swap would allow G.M. to file for bankruptcy protection on Monday and expect an easier restructuring.

          Under the restructuring plan, the United Automobile Workers union, through its retiree health care fund, would receive a 17.5 percent stake in the new G.M. and warrants to buy an additional 2.5 percent.

          Bondholders would initially get a 10 percent stake, along with warrants for 15 percent.

          The Treasury Department, which has lent G.M. about $20 billion since December, required the company to make deals with the union and bondholders to cut debt and expenses by June 1. But the deals are not seen as enough to prevent a bankruptcy. After the restructuring, the federal government could own as much as 70 percent of the company...

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: "as gm goes, so goes the nation": bill gross

            "poom" represents u.s. creditors eventually rushing for a debt-for-equity swap. the u.s., of course, can't go bankrupt since it can print the money to pay off debt in its own currency. when we've printed enough, and it's clear we're printing ever more and fast enough, the creditors' desire for "equity" - ownership of real assets in some form - will become overwhelming.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: "as gm goes, so goes the nation": bill gross

              I think Ford is going to go down the same road as GM and Chrysler, unless they manage to benefit from less competition due to those bankrupcies. They are losing a billion a month give or take a bit. I laughed the other day when a radio talk show host used Ford as an example. He said " Well, Ford manages to be doing something right since they aren't in bankruptcy".

              http://www.newser.com/story/49334/fo...campaign=story

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: "as gm goes, so goes the nation": bill gross

                Gentlemen,

                I may be wrong, but I thought bondholders were different than stockholders in that the bondholders had specific rights on collateral as opposed to stockholder's general interest in the company.

                Thus a majority of bondholders voting for bond for equity swaps doesn't necessarily mean it will come to pass as the bond debt of a company is not a monolithic entity.

                In the bankruptcy proceedings perhaps it just means that those bondholders in favor abstain on the plaintiff's bankruptcy working plan, but the remaining bondholders still have their claim.

                As for ownership - I'd think owning the physical plant and/or IP is far better than dilutable stakes in stock. After all, we have the wonderful 'early' Citigroup preferred stock investors as an example. Sure, the government and C took better care of them than the common shareholders, but the result is still major losses.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: "as gm goes, so goes the nation": bill gross

                  Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                  Gentlemen,

                  I may be wrong, but I thought bondholders were different than stockholders in that the bondholders had specific rights on collateral as opposed to stockholder's general interest in the company.

                  Thus a majority of bondholders voting for bond for equity swaps doesn't necessarily mean it will come to pass as the bond debt of a company is not a monolithic entity.

                  In the bankruptcy proceedings perhaps it just means that those bondholders in favor abstain on the plaintiff's bankruptcy working plan, but the remaining bondholders still have their claim.

                  As for ownership - I'd think owning the physical plant and/or IP is far better than dilutable stakes in stock. After all, we have the wonderful 'early' Citigroup preferred stock investors as an example. Sure, the government and C took better care of them than the common shareholders, but the result is still major losses.
                  1. the gm bonds are, iirc, general obligations unsecured by specific assets. a lot of the chrysler bonds WERE secured by specific collateral, and we know how well that held up.:rolleyes:

                  2. i'm still more interested in pondering gm as a precursor, in miniature, of the u.s.' future. the bondholders, as you say, would be interested in owning physical plant and/or ip, as well as real commodities, in preference to dilutable minority equity stakes. place against that politically inspired legal impediments that may be put in place to prevent that. [think unocal and dubai ports] in general, the bond holders will do best to swap out of their positions as soon as possible, possibly for 3rd parties' assets as long as those parties are willing to accept the bonds in return. say, isn't that kind of like pledging bonds as collateral for the [vendor?] loans to buy resources in, say, brazil? hmmmm....;)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: "as gm goes, so goes the nation": bill gross

                    Originally posted by jk View Post
                    i used to read his monthly columns regularly, before he became an unofficial gov't spokesman [or a self-serving asshole].

                    and as gm goes, so goes the nation. take a look at the column itself, where he lays out all the steps that he thought gm needed to take [and-we now know- didn't], and all the parallel steps the u.s. needs to take [and isn't].
                    Please tell me who is not a self serving asshole in this business? Maybe Krugman. I think Gross is as good as anyone in the same league.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: "as gm goes, so goes the nation": bill gross

                      Originally posted by nero3 View Post
                      Please tell me who is not a self serving asshole in this business? Maybe Krugman.
                      bwah ha ha! missed this thread... Paul Krugman "Inflation Scare"

                      krugman, not a self serving asshole...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: "as gm goes, so goes the nation": bill gross

                        Originally posted by metalman View Post
                        bwah ha ha! missed this thread... Paul Krugman "Inflation Scare"

                        didn't miss that thread. i stopped reading it when it quickly degenerated into ad hominem attacks on krugman instead of analysis.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: "as gm goes, so goes the nation": bill gross

                          Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                          I may be wrong, but I thought bondholders were different than stockholders in that the bondholders had specific rights on collateral as opposed to stockholder's general interest in the company
                          Dont stockholders get a say in how the company is ran (through voting rights)? Bondholders only get a claim on property, stockholders get *power* to acquire more of it...


                          PS: I just dislocated my wrist about an hour ago, so its a *lot* harder to type now! Im literally sitting here with a giant icepack wrapped in some ace bandages on, pecking away with one hand, sometimes two if I can withstand the pain (Ive got one finger poking out of the wrap LOL)
                          Every interest bearing loan is mathematically impossible to pay back.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: "as gm goes, so goes the nation": bill gross

                            Originally posted by ricket View Post
                            Dont stockholders get a say in how the company is ran (through voting rights)? Bondholders only get a claim on property, stockholders get *power* to acquire more of it...

                            c1ue is referring to the bankruptcy process.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: "as gm goes, so goes the nation": bill gross

                              You can be certain that whenever Gross thinks or speaks it is for his own well being alone...............there isn't a magnanimous shred of DNA in his body.


                              He has begun a very peculiar game with the Fed and as we move closer to a bond market collapse he is to be watched closely and given a very wide berth.

                              Comment

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