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Personal Experience with Some of the Problems in Heath Care.

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  • Personal Experience with Some of the Problems in Heath Care.

    Personal experiences as a health care consumer in the last two and a half years have significantly changed my perspectives about the health care system in the U.S. From the beginning of these experiences I have realized that, at most, they represent a microscopic view, perhaps better a very high-powered electron microscopic view, of the health care industry. Whether or not anything I put forth with regard to these experiences can be extrapolated to indicate there is widespread similar occurrences, I certainly do not know, but I suspicion the answer is, “Yes.” Being one of cynical disposition, I would bet that my experiences are not uncommon if the truth were known, but that certainly is conjecture and based primarily upon some knowledge of man’s propensity for greed.

    I have questioned whether or not some of the points I hope to make are appropriate to iTulip; however, just over a week ago Jane Burns contributed a commentary titled, “Wealth De-redistribution. Can Luxury Taxes Diffuse the Medicare Time Bomb?” http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=930&highlight=Jane+Burns in which she noted, “It is hard to picture an undiminished Medicare, which is the financial time bomb, not Social Security.” I take her comment as license to discuss some aspects of health care, not just Medicare, because as time progresses, also I see the problems of the costs of all health care as she stated: a “financial time bomb.”

    During most of my life those immediately around me (specifically my family while I was growing up and three wives so far over the duration) and I have not been large consumers of health care. Compared to many, we have been fortunate to be mostly healthy. Probably the biggest expenses for health care in my family until my younger sister completed orthodontic care were costs associated with dental care for two sisters and myself—growing up back then without fluoridated water, we had lots of cavities. Otherwise, infrequently did my family create expenses to doctors for anything. In part, I became dentist because of my experiences of being a dental patient as a teenager.

    By virtue of having been a dental student, then in the Navy, a resident in oral surgery, and finally an oral surgeon, when a wife or I required medical or dental care it was rendered to us while in the Navy as a benefit, then later on the basis of professional courtesy plus whatever our insurance paid the physician when the care was medical. Other than the costs of purchasing health insurance usually with low deductibles, my life has been sheltered from direct knowledge of the costs for receiving care as perhaps experienced by average Americans. I was always spared the knowledge of what were the costs associated with whatever care was provided by other dentists or physicians. I had the relatively minor misfortune of having three hospitalizations for knee cartilage problems and never saw the bills from the orthopedic surgeons, the anesthesiologists, or the hospital. They all took whatever my insurance paid and wrote off the rest. Was my experience with the costs of health care sheltered or not? Other than the knowledge of what I charged for care in my practice, as I see things, I absolutely was very sheltered. It always struck me as uncouth and intrusive to broach the subject of costs by possibly having asked a colleague, “What would this cost me or us were it not for your professional courtesy?”

    Near the end of 2004 my sheltered life changed, from the experience of mostly having been a health care provider to that of the experience of what I imagine to be an average American seeking and receiving health care, when my wife for no apparent reason developed a progressive paralysis in some of the muscles in her dominant left hand. As now, we then lived in Fort Worth, a city in which I never practiced and thus had no intimate knowledge of who might or who might not be a good doctor. I don’t know when along life’s path it became obvious to me that all health care providers are not equal in knowledge, skill, or dedication, but it is a fact in my mind that they are not all “good” in these senses. So no mistake is made about what I am writing, I am referencing only the U.S.

    My wife’s search for care did not become a personal experience for me until at her request I accompanied her to a follow up visit to a neurologist to discuss the results of nerve and muscle stimulation tests that the neurologist had recommended and performed (it turned out in part) after his initial evaluation of her problem. It was at this follow up visit that I became intimately aware of another variable in what constitutes the definition of a “good” health care provider and that was whether or not a provider will commit fraud in the submission of insurance claims to health insurance companies, or to reduce the variable to a word: honesty.

    The interested reader can peruse Blue Cross Blue Shield of Tennessee’s website Fight Fraud http://www.bcbst.com/fraud/ to gain a bit of insight from an insurance company's perspective. This site must certainly insinuate that the insurance industry appears to be dedicated to removing the cost of fraud from being a part of the total expense of health care.

    So as hopefully not to make this opening post so long as to create no interest or possible educational benefit to readers, I intend by the time I am finished with subsequent posts to demonstrate how easy it is for health care providers to commit insurance fraud. I shall explain how in my opinion for one who is a medical layperson it is almost impossible to detect such fraud, and finally to recount the total waste of time I experienced in trying to seek remedy for instances of clear insurance fraud through my wife’s insurance company, the Texas State Insurance Commissioner, the Texas State Board of Medical Examiners, the Governor of Texas, and my failure to arouse any interest from the editor of Fort Worth’s newspaper as to the significance of this problem. None of this is about the personal loss of some dollars by us. It is all about calling to attention another aspect of what is wrong with American health care and why in my opinion the system must be changed.


    If you have any interest, please stay tuned.
    Jim 69 y/o

    "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

    Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

    Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

  • #2
    Re: Personal Experience with Some of the Problems in Heath Care.

    Contiued from post # 1.

    My wife asked me to go to the follow up visit with the neurologist because he was Asian and spoke with a heavy accent, and because she was not sure she would fully grasp whatever he might tell her regarding the findings from the nerve and muscle stimulation tests he had performed seven days before which was seven days after my wife’s initial consultation.

    Since I quit work about 15 years ago, I seldom wear a watch. For whatever reasons when we went to the appointment I happened to wear my watch. The appointment was in the morning, and we got there early in order to be on time. We got seated in a treatment room and 30 minutes after the time of the appointment the neurologist appeared.

    The first thing he discussed was that all the tests were normal. He briefly asked wife had anything notably changed with her paralysis, which it hadn’t. He hammered on a couple of reflex points, had her squeeze both his hands by their crossing their hands as to shake with both hands simultaneously for assessment of comparative hand strengths, had her raise her shoulders against resistance he applied to the top of her shoulders, and to raise her forearms laterally against his resistance to her doing so. Diagnosis imparted at this visit: left idiopathic ulnar neuropathy—means there is something wrong probably with the nerve that makes the muscles between the fingers work, and I, the neurologist, don’t know what it is.

    Treatment: Observation and two prescriptions. One for Vitamin B Complex, believed to have some beneficial effect on nerves, and Neurontin 300mg. twice a day for a month, return in a month. Except for my asking a question we would have been dismissed then. After his answering the question, we were dismissed. I noted my watch. Incidentally, I asked the neurologist would he be so kind as to send me copies of all the record thus far generated, that would be his notes from the initial consultation, the muscles and nerves stimulations studies, and the present visit. He agreed.

    We had spent 30 minutes waiting for the neurologist and 10 minutes with him. I went to the car while wife checked out, made a return appointment, and made a payment on the charges for the visit.
    She brought out a full-page charge slip that had approximately 140 services listed on it, and I perused it as we drove home. Only one box denoting the charge for the visit was checked..

    That line read: 99214, X-mark, E&M Level 4, 181. At the bottom of the slip “181” was translated into $181.00 or bonars.

    Now does anyone reading this, if anyone is, who is not jk or DemonD and is not a health care doctor, or allied health care worker know what “99214” and "E&M Level 4" mean?

    If anyone knows exactly what they mean, or even approximately what they mean, please answer, and please add how you happen to know.

    What are the purposes of those notations?

    Picture yourself as the patient and ask yourself: was I just treated honestly?

    Please comment if you like, otherwise just think about all this.

    Stay tuned.
    Jim 69 y/o

    "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

    Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

    Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Personal Experience with Some of the Problems in Heath Care.

      Jim, dunno why you singled me out, but in my job I work for an integrated health maintenance organization meaning they provide both the insurance and the services. In other words the CPT codings don't really matter unless I am billing medicare, and we are harped on to never, ever be fraudulent with our orders.

      In other words I feel as though I'm impartial to the system, despite the fact that I work in it. In any case, here is the answer to your question:

      CPT-4 Code 99214: Evaluation and Management: Office or other outpatient visit for the evaluation and management of
      an established patient, which requires at least two of these three key components: a detailed history, a detailed examination,
      medical decision-making of moderate complexity.

      CPT stands for "Current Procedural Terminology" and 4 is i believe the version (like ICD9 and DSM4)

      A quick google search also gave this general guideline page Jim:
      http://www.fpnotebook.com/MAN9.htm


      Incidentally, I'm not sure how rampant actual fraud is in billing. Computer modeling has allowed insurance companies to spot anything squirrelly right away, and most docs are still using paper systems which means they are at an information dis-advantage v. insurance companies. I do know hospitals jack up rates on patients who have no insurance so they can claim higher losses by charging like 5 bucks for soap and weird stuff like that. Disclosure laws are supposed to start ferreting that out though.

      In my opinion, the problem in this country isn't so much in getting good care, it's getting seen. The wait for just your family doctor is usually outlandish, and if you need to see a specialist you could be weeks if not months. This is across all health care organizational structures.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Personal Experience with Some of the Problems in Heath Care.

        Alot of items to address about healthcare Jim; too many for this type of medium. Sorry
        I one day will run with the big dogs in the world currency markets, and stick it to the man

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Personal Experience with Some of the Problems in Heath Care.

          I will address the macroeconomics of healthcare for a moment.

          When I was little, people paid their own medical bills and had coverage mostly via indemnity plans.

          I don't see why this same approach won't work today. It seems to me that creeping socialization of healthcare, namely third parties paying, has almost ensured the problems that you talk about here. And that gets people clamoring for further (total) socialization as the only answer. And indeed, I think that complete socialization of healthcare is inevitable, unfortunately, in this era where collectivization of every day life continues partly because of the lack of a credible counter ideological movement...

          It is simple that if someone is paying for their own health care, they will be careful consumers. The insurance company can aggregate demand and use the group buying power to negotiate for the consumer, but the more share the consumer pays, the more reasonable the whole thing becomes. It's the THIRD PARTY PAYING that causes the huge problems.

          Also, insurance is for catastrophes. Wage earners have grown accustomed to the paternal nanny state and don't want to pay any of their medical costs. This has to be reversed. People should pay ALL their own medical costs up to a limit that ensures their solvency. The health savings account is a practical implementation of this idea, and removes the moral hazard built into the present system where people pay a nominal $10 co-pay to over-utilize expensive services.

          Here in brief is the solution to healthcare issues:

          1. remove health insurance as an employment benefit. Make each person responsible for his or her own health costs. Make health costs totally deductible from individual income tax. Mandate everyone to have a health savings account so they can accumulate their own surplus from under-utilization and invest this surplus for use when they are older and in poor health.

          2. put a risk sharing pool into place where health insurance companies bid for bad risks and must assume some bad risks (people with pre-existing problems) in proportion to their market share. Model this after state mandated "assigned risk" auto insurance schemes that have been in place for a long time.

          3. states can put into place tax credits for indigent people so they can buy basic health insurance. States have to get rid of mandated fluff coverages and offer basic no-frills plans.

          I don't think this is all that complicated. What has made it seem that way is the existing socialization (employer deductibility of healthcare for instance, and Medicare).
          Last edited by grapejelly; February 20, 2007, 09:10 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Personal Experience with Some of the Problems in Heath Care.

            Agree 100%. My car is insured to cover the expense if someone rams into it, for accidents. Oil changes and repairs to the transmission, for example, are not covered. If oil changes were also covered by insurance, some people will change their oil every 500 miles with the most expensive oil available. As a result, the price of oil will go up, along with the cost of the insurance.

            Why is normal human "maintenance" paid for with insurance? Makes no sense to me. Why is anyone surprised that the result is higher medical and insurance costs?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Personal Experience with Some of the Problems in Heath Care.

              there are some problems with the "solutions" offered here when they are applied to people of very limited means. in general, yes, insurance is to share major risk and shouldn't cover normal wear and tear and maintenance costs. for people with little money, though, that means they are incentivized to avoid routine care, increasing the likelihood of major illness being detected later, and more expensively in the long run. so your "no-frills" coverage has to include primary care for the impoverished. [look at people's teeth! people with little money don't get dental care and if you look around you'll see people with missing teeth.]

              insurance is meant to share risk and so large risk pools are appropriate and a way to handle the pre-exsisting condition nonsense. but somehow you need to address the issue of basic, primary and preventive care. in general we don't have a health care system, we have an illness care system. i guess that's a whole 'nother topic. sorry.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Personal Experience with Some of the Problems in Heath Care.

                Originally posted by DemonD
                Jim, dunno why you singled me out, but in my job I work for an integrated health maintenance organization meaning they provide both the insurance and the services. In other words the CPT codings don't really matter unless I am billing medicare, and we are harped on to never, ever be fraudulent with our orders.
                DemonD, I have finally figured out what the terminal "D" stands for: Dipstick! I singled you and jk out because I knew jk would know what 99214 meant, and I suspected you would also. I hoped to point out to any readers that what generally goes on between providers and insurance companies is something about which they know little or nothing--that is what I would bet the "average American" knows, and I could lose such a bet. I didn't want you to answer if you knew the answer, Dipstick. I am joshing you, and actually your comments on this are valuable. They saved me from having to write the explanation, and the link you turned up I believe is an excellent one for readers to possbily gain greater insight into how services rendered by a provider are transmitted to insurance companies. I think anyone interested in all this should bookmark your link, which is in your quote just below.

                The online reference that defined individual CPT codes that I found a couple of years back was truncated and of much less potential benefit to understanding something about this topic. Thank you very much for putting up the link.

                Originally posted by DemonD
                In other words I feel as though I'm impartial to the system, despite the fact that I work in it. In any case, here is the answer to your question:

                CPT-4 Code 99214: Evaluation and Management: Office or other outpatient visit for the evaluation and management of
                an established patient, which requires at least two of these three key components: a detailed history, a detailed examination,
                medical decision-making of moderate complexity.

                CPT stands for "Current Procedural Terminology" and 4 is I believe the version (like ICD9 and DSM4)

                A quick google search also gave this general guideline page Jim:
                http://www.fpnotebook.com/MAN9.htm
                To clarify for those unfamiliar with any of this, CPT codes are used for providers to designate the services they have presumably provided to a patient. When a provider submits a code to an insurance company seeking reimbursement for care, he/she is saying, "this code represents what I have done to earn money, pay me for what I have done." There is a assumption in all this, that providers do not "up-code," i.e. submit a code to the insurance company that represents more services were provided than actually were provided. If a provider "up-codes," it is fraud.

                When I quit practicing, I did not bring my CPT code book with me as a treasured possession. As the problems I experienced grew back at the end 2004, I went online an bought one which was titled "CPT-PLUS 2005," thus there are on-going updates of these codes. I don't know what the latest version is, or what version your link references--that is not too important in considering these basic evaluation and management codes, I don't think.

                Originally posted by DemonD
                Incidentally, I'm not sure how rampant actual fraud is in billing.
                I would say you are right, you don't know, and any estimate I might make would be pure conjecture, but I don't think anyone in the world actually knows the frequency or extent of fraud in billing, and further, I don't think the answer will ever be known. Hopefully I will elucidate my reasons for my opinion later.

                Originally posted by DemonD
                Computer modeling has allowed insurance companies to spot anything squirrelly right away, and most docs are still using paper systems which means they are at an information dis-advantage v. insurance companies.
                In no way intending to demean you personally, Demon, I think your contention here is bullshit--sounds good, but it is bullshit.

                Originally posted by DemonD
                do know hospitals jack up rates on patients who have no insurance so they can claim higher losses by charging like 5 bucks for soap and weird stuff like that. Disclosure laws are supposed to start ferreting that out though.
                Do you actually know the mentality of what goes on in hospitals when it comes to their deriving their charges, or are you perhaps referencing what may have appeared in the main stream media. I think perhaps you are correct, but to actually know what you state, I believe you would have to have experience in that section of a hospital that is responsible for deriving charges. If hospitals overcharge patients who pay, and use the same rate schedules to denote how much is lost in treating patients who cannot pay or will not pay, then those charges for indigent care are actually overstated. This aspect is not my main focus here, but noting how far we all are from actually knowing the true costs of hospitalization is worth the awareness.

                Originally posted by DemonD
                In my opinion, the problem in this country isn't so much in getting good care, it's getting seen. The wait for just your family doctor is usually outlandish, and if you need to see a specialist you could be weeks if not months. This is across all health care organizational structures.
                To answer your last comment, I'll reference spunky

                A lot of items to address about healthcare Jim; too many for this type of medium.
                spunky is correct that there are a lot of problems--actually far too many for me to attempt to address, so for that reason I started this thread to create awareness in some areas in which I believe I have some personal insight. DemonD, rhetorically, just how does an "average American" know he/she is in fact getting "good care"?

                P.S. To anyone, I copied onto paper an article dated Feb. 17, 2005 from Market Watch--which is something I access through Yahoo--titled "Call it a dire case of more is less." I would really like to be able to put that article up as reference, but I can no longer locate it by any type search of which I am capable. I am not a good searcher. Can anyone with real skill and some of their time find the article?
                Jim 69 y/o

                "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

                Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

                Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Personal Experience with Some of the Problems in Heath Care.

                  grapejelly, EJ, jk, thank you for your comments here, they are all pertinent considerations; however, in my choosing to lump all you together in posting an answer, if I may, I wish to focus on one thing: each of you include "insurance" considerations which of course you are free to do.

                  I hope by the end of my comments to convince each of you and anyone else interested that the answer to the problem of cost of healthcare is not going to be solved by the insurance industry being a part of the answer, but you are going to have to stay tuned and be patient to understand the bases of my arguments.

                  It could turn out that I am the only one convinced that insurance will not ultimately be a part of the answer.
                  Jim 69 y/o

                  "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

                  Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

                  Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Personal Experience with Some of the Problems in Heath Care.

                    http://www.newyorker.com/fact/conten.../050829fa_fact

                    Originally posted by grapejelly
                    It is simple that if someone is paying for their own health care, they will be careful consumers. The insurance company can aggregate demand and use the group buying power to negotiate for the consumer, but the more share the consumer pays, the more reasonable the whole thing becomes. It's the THIRD PARTY PAYING that causes the huge problems.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Personal Experience with Some of the Problems in Heath Care.

                      Spartacus,

                      Thank you for the link http://www.newyorker.com/fact/conten.../050829fa_fact

                      I think it makes some excellent points, and it is well worth reading if one has interest in the future of health care in the U.S. Unless you know yourself to be dying soon, I believe everyone has an interest in this.

                      I'll be damned if at times I do not think my brain must be turning to mush, perhaps it is and is readily apparent to anyone reading my posts. The last few lines of the last paragraph of the article you referenced makes no sense to me. Will someone explain it to me, please?

                      Originally posted by from article
                      In the rest of the industrialized world, it is assumed that the more equally and widely the burdens of illness are shared, the better off the population as a whole is likely to be. The reason the United States has forty-five million people without coverage is that its health-care policy is in the hands of people who disagree, and who regard health insurance not as the solution but as the problem.
                      It seems to me that the many of the industrialized nations have better and more affordable health care than the US as suggested in the first sentence above, and supported in the article.

                      The reason the US has 45,000,000 without coverage is that our health care policy is in the hands of people who disagree with the notion "the more equally and widely the burdens of illness are shared, the better off the population as a whole is likely to be." I think if I disagreed with that notion in quotes, then I would think gvien the insurance system as this country has had over my lifetime that insurance is the solution. I see insurance as we have it as the problem. To me, the last sentence in the quote is wrongly written, but knowing myself I am wrongly interpreting its meaning.

                      Help!
                      Jim 69 y/o

                      "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

                      Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

                      Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Personal Experience with Some of the Problems in Heath Care.

                        Originally posted by jk
                        but somehow you need to address the issue of basic, primary and preventive care. in general we don't have a health care system, we have an illness care system. i guess that's a whole 'nother topic. sorry.
                        But I would argue that health is negatively correlated with consumption of health care resources.

                        Each consumer's financial responsibility for their healthcare ultimately means that people who have a healthier lifestyle and avoid going to doctors are rewarded, and those who let themselves go and treat their bodies and minds poorly pay for that not just in the form of poor health but also in financial terms.

                        There are people who are in bad health through no fault of their own. That is a fact. But in aggregate, most people in the US who suffer health problems have issues that can be prevented or treated through non-medical means.

                        To use a personal example, I have had lifelong asthma and was getting worse and worse. I discovered the Buteyko method that not only has eliminated my asthma but also made me sleep better, recover quicker from exercise, stop needing to get up five times per night to urinate, stop snoring, and lose weight. All this through a simple daily breathing exercise.

                        I have attempted to interest people in this but few are interested because they'd rather take pills and inhalers. If they had to pay a greater share of their medical burden, perhaps they would be more interested? Who knows...

                        I agree the insurance industry isn't going to "solve" the healthcare issue. We need rational fiscal and political policies, namely the ones I suggested. Insurance kicks in to 1) negotiate discounts and 2) cover the insured when the costs threaten their solvency.

                        The current system is a mess because it is neither fish nor fowl -- it is partially socialized but not completely, and the employer deductibility is, to mix metaphors, a red herring

                        I think we have the system that maximizes people's dependence upon the government. It's not single-payer but people depend upon government policy (deductibility of health care premiums by their employer) and government payment (Medicare and Medicaid). The result is a lot of political support for the expensive system we have.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Personal Experience with Some of the Problems in Heath Care.

                          Originally posted by Jim Nickerson
                          Spartacus,

                          Thank you for the link http://www.newyorker.com/fact/conten.../050829fa_fact


                          The reason the US has 45,000,000 without coverage is that our health care policy is in the hands of people who disagree with the notion "the more equally and widely the burdens of illness are shared, the better off the population as a whole is likely to be." I think if I disagreed with that notion in quotes, then I would think gvien the insurance system as this country has had over my lifetime that insurance is the solution. I see insurance as we have it as the problem. To me, the last sentence in the quote is wrongly written, but knowing myself I am wrongly interpreting its meaning.

                          Help!
                          You understood what was written correctly. One reason politicians support co-payments and buy-ins and the like is because they think too many people use the medical system frivolous-ly.

                          While you understood its meaning (I think) I think that what is written misses the point.

                          US politicians may agree wholeheartedly, but they are wedded (maybe welded or glued) to some ideological notions about what governments should or should not do.

                          In other words, what stands in the way is politicians afraid of being called socialists, and the glee with which other politicians (and certain radio hosts, hehehe) to play on fear and doubt.

                          re-reading the quote again, it seems to be Gladwell was trying to get to this point but didn't, explicitly.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Personal Experience with Some of the Problems in Heath Care.

                            Thanks, Spartacus.

                            To grapejelly, perhaps you read the entire article that Spartacus put up from the New Yorker, or maybe not yet. I think the article offers a lot of insight in how people react to the costs of health care when the cost of it is considered in terms relative to their incomes and the costs of food and shelter.

                            I personally think there is some validity to citizens depending upon the government to protect them from some things, even themselves at times. I am sure we could argue about specifics and might be mostly on the same side.

                            Spartacus' reference points out how the US actually spends more per capita for health care, yet provides less for all the population.
                            Last edited by Jim Nickerson; February 20, 2007, 03:54 PM.
                            Jim 69 y/o

                            "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

                            Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

                            Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Personal Experience with Some of the Problems in Heath Care.

                              I hesitated posting that because this is one thread where Godwin may eventually need to be invoked.

                              Originally posted by Jim Nickerson
                              Thanks, Spartacus.

                              To grapejelly, perhaps you read the entire article that Spartacus put up from the New Yorker, or maybe not yet.

                              Spartacus' reference points out how the US actually spends more per capita for health care, yet provides less for all the population.
                              This wasn't that big a deal to me - maybe one can argue that US healthcare is better, for those who can pay.

                              What was much more interesting was the moral hazard discussion - before that article I had been of the view that third party payer is the big problem.

                              But if it's economic arguments that are needed, I was actually surprised he doesn't strongly emphasize the number for example, from GM - how many thousands per car go to health care, a number that provides a huge competitive advantage to other countries' industry.

                              Comment

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