Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

[*T*]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Well, since Herr Goebbels and his posse were socialists, I would focus on those whose posts betray a socialistic mindset. Happy hunting.

*chokes on breakfast*

[*T*]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

I do not expect Mexican immigrants to become English, nor do I expect Asians to become English - or Scottish, Irish, German, Italian or any other such "Eurocentric" nonsense. But, I demand that they wait their turn in line, enter our nation legally, and become Americans.

Please define "American" in this context.

60's Indian & West Indian immigrants to the UK were British - as citizens of the Empire - how would you apply your argument to that case?
(Please don't say it's irrelevant - it's relevant to me).

[WDCRob]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Well, since Herr Goebbels and his posse were socialists, I would focus on those whose posts betray a socialistic mindset. Happy hunting.

They were fascists. No trouble find at least one of those.

[flintlock]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

What about having principles?

Yeah, my principle is that if some rat bastard is trying to kill my family, I have no problem torturing them to death. What's yours? Wear a nice suit at their funeral and swear you did all you could do?

[c1ue]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Metalman,

No secret that most people are racist - in the sense of fear and distrust of those of dissimilar appearance and/or background.

This applies to America as well as to other nations. Those who think otherwise just need to look at black/white residence patterns.

Sure, probably less than other nations, but then again there is no such thing as a 'real American'.

As for the Japanese - who DO have such a thing as a 'real Japanese' and who DO behave quite discriminatorily against the SanKokuJin (Korean, Philipino, Chinese minorities), I have a funny story:

Ironically while many of the above sankokujin may be 2nd or 3rd generation living in Japan and speak/act Japanese very fluently, the other foreigners - especially Caucasians - often feel they are more acclimated.

But this is not true. These feelings arise due to 'gaijin privilege' - which extends mostly to the white foreigners. Why?

What is not well known about the Japanese language is that it is very contextually dependent. Certainly it is easy to learn basic communication: Japanese (nihongo) is phonetic and is grammatically simple, excluding the 2000 everyday/5000 total Chinese ideogram Kanji - but the social context is very difficult in contrast to detect/learn.

For example: most foreigners speak like Japanese women. To test this - next time you hear a foreigner speak Japanese, note whether his tone/pitch rises as compared to their English or other native speaking - especially if the foreign speaker is male. Japanese women pitch their speaking voices higher than 'normal', whereas Japanese men pitch their speaking voices lower.

Similarly the actual forms of words used are quite different as is the grammatic style. There are many ways of saying I in Japanese as well as a number of formal/informal versions; a gaijin privilege foreigner can get away with it whereas a sankokujin foreigner could not.

The reason foreigners almost all speak like women is because teaching Japanese to foreigners is an extremely low status occupation. 95% of all such teachers are women, and they speak naturally for them. And of course their students pick up their tones and style.

Of course 'gaijin privilege' means those lucky foreign types will never be openly mocked or derided for their speaking like women (or numerous other social faux pas) because while inwardly many of the Japanese are grinning, outwardly the behavior is punctiliously polite.

[Raz]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Please define "American" in this context.

60's Indian & West Indian immigrants to the UK were British - as citizens of the Empire - how would you apply your argument to that case?
(Please don't say it's irrelevant - it's relevant to me).

Why did you think I would call your question irrelevant?:confused:

"American" in this context means that your loyalty is first and foremost to the United States, its Constitution and the Republic.

It means that you place the sovereign interests of the United States first. Before Israel, before India, before Mexico, before Pakistan, before Ireland, before Italy, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. While you don't leave your family or distinctive culture behind, it means that you do leave Mexico behind. You leave Ireland behind. You leave England behind. You leave Pakistan behind.
If you don't, then the oath you took as a Naturalized Citizen makes you a fraud. And that seems to be only a short step away from being a traitor.

I have a problem with Dual Nationals. I don't like it one bit.

[BadJuju]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

I have a problem with Dual Nationals. I don't like it one bit.

As I see it, we are all humans and citizens of one planet. I abhor the notion of dividing people into races, classes, castes, or nationalities. It promotes all the worst aspects of humanity, and has only led to the most depraved and degenerate acts of mankind's history. I have never been one to identify with a specific culture, nation, ethnicity, or class. I view myself as human first and foremost. Everything else is trivial beyond that.

[Raz]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

As I see it, we are all humans and citizens of one planet. I abhor the notion of dividing people into races, classes, castes, or nationalities. It promotes all the worst aspects of humanity, and has only led to the most depraved and degenerate acts of mankind's history. I have never been one to identify with a specific culture, nation, ethnicity, or class. I view myself as human first and foremost. Everything else is trivial beyond that.

Yes, and in times past, especially when I smoked "Wacky Tobbaccy", I thought of myself as simply an Earthling. I thought of some other Earthling whom I didn't even know, one who lived across the mystic sea, as deserving of the very same friendship and loyalty as my neighbor next door. I thought that in such a near catatonic state I must have reached altruistic perfection! I saw no need for military forces to protect the United States since all men were truly brothers. I thought that handing out flowers would change the hearts and minds of all earthly beings. Even the existence of governments seemed trivial and unnecessary.

Then I woke up and found myself back in the real world.


"When I was a child I thought like a child and I reasoned like a child;
but when I became a man I put away childish things."
St. Paul

[BadJuju]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Yes, and in times past, especially when I smoked "Wacky Tobbaccy", I thought of myself as simply an Earthling. I thought of some other Earthling whom I didn't even know, one who lived across the mystic sea, as deserving of the very same friendship and loyalty as my neighbor next door. I thought that in such a near catatonic state I must have reached altruistic perfection! I saw no need for military forces to protect the United States since all men were truly brothers. I thought that handing out flowers would change the hearts and minds of all earthly beings. Even the existence of governments seemed trivial and unnecessary.

Then I woke up and found myself back in the real world.


"When I was a child I thought like a child and I reasoned like a child;
but when I became a man I put away childish things."
St. Paul

I am a realist as well and know all too well that people are predisposed to thinking in terms of race, class, caste, or nationality. That, however, does not mean that I have to think of myself that way, and it does not mean that I am wrong for thinking it. Humans are humans first and foremost and should think of themselves as such; however, people are too petty to let themselves ever be more than the sum of man-made definitions. So I have loyalty to friends and family, but not to race, class, nationality, or caste.

Cannot say I like your condescending tone here, either, bub.

[Raz]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

I am a realist as well and know all too well that people are predisposed to thinking in terms of race, class, caste, or nationality. That, however, does not mean that I have to think of myself that way, and it does not mean that I am wrong for thinking it. Humans are humans first and foremost and should think of themselves as such; however, people are too petty to let themselves ever be more than the sum of man-made definitions. So I have loyalty to friends and family, but not to race, class, nationality, or caste.

Cannot say I like your condescending tone here, either, bub.

Having just reread it I don't like it either.
I'm sorry, and I hope you will forgive me.

I have no loyalty to race, class or caste. None.
I do have loyalty to my family, friends and my country.

However, those loyalties are not absolute: I will not remain so loyal to a family member that I will help them cover up a murder.
Neither will I remain loyal to my country should her government become a monster like that of Nazi Germany.

I hope that in such a case I would have the courage of Dietrich Bonnhoeffer - while counting the cost - and accepting the consequences.

[BadJuju]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Having just reread it I don't like it either.
I'm sorry, and I hope you will forgive me.

It is okay, bud.

[Master Shake]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

They were fascists. No trouble find at least one of those.

NAZI was a German acronym for the National Socialist German Worker's Party. I thought that was common knowledge.

[Diarmuid]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

NAZI was a German acronym for the National Socialist German Worker's Party. I thought that was common knowledge.

All apples are fruit. not all fruit are apples and so it goes, All NAZIs are socialists but not all socialists are NAZIs, all NAZIs are fascists, not all fascists are NAZIs, as I am sure you are well aware.

[Munger]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

This is obviously a sensitive topic for you and again, I apologize.

Libel and slander are always sensitive topics to the recipient of them.

But, I will again point out that in the thread you refer to I immediately apologized and clarified - before you ever posted on that thread - stating that I did not mean to assert that Hayek was racist, and that what I meant was that it is too easy to blame our problems on "brown people" when the problem is much deeper.

And I will point out to you that initially I only warned you about playing the "racist" card with me. I won't play cards with a marked deck.
You read racism into hayekvindicated's argument about California's problems being magnified by illegal aliens without presenting facts that they do not. I have two relatives in California and several friends there as well. They ALL say that it costs their state an enormous amount of money. Common sense would seem to agree and there are studies to back that up. One can be found here: http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigr...caillegals.htm


The rest of our argument was me asserting that there is no requirement for an immigrant to "assimilate" to be accepted into this country as a citizen. And I stand by that. And I do not care if immigrants live within their communities and share a common cultural background that I do not share. It doesn't bother me in the slightest - and actually, I quite enjoy carousing through china town or the hispanic boulevard to check out the sights and sounds. I still think your "Balkan enclave" comment comes across as offensive. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that it just came across wrong.

Now here is where I overreacted based on what I thought you were saying. You are technically correct if you are referring to "freedom of association". And I should have spelled out my position with clarity, but my anger over your false accusations of racism where there is none along with your cavalier statement that illegal "immigration" can also be good for "filling jobs" was the firecracker that cut short my intention to elaborate. Here it is: I do not expect Mexican immigrants to become English, nor do I expect Asians to become English - or Scottish, Irish, German, Italian or any other such "Eurocentric" nonsense. But, I demand that they wait their turn in line, enter our nation legally, and become Americans. A guest-worker program would probably bring some order and sanity to the present anarchic situation, but I will only support that IF legal guest workers must go to the end of the line to await naturalization. Otherwise the ones who respect our laws and wait their turn are cheated and played for chumps.

The problem I have is the present invasion of illegal aliens. They are NOT welcome by me, and I don't give a rat's-rear-end what country they come from or the level of pigment they bring with them.

You are free to disagree with me; you are not free to libel or slander me.

We both are at fault if we cannot have an honest debate about the facts at hand. I might have even come across worse than you.

I accept your apology and offer mine to you for whatever I misrepresented and for losing my temper and civility.
And especially for calling you a joke.
You're wrong, but you're not a joke.:p

I think we are more similar in our thinking than we realized. My apology is sincere. Let's put this behind us.

[Master Shake]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

All apples are fruit. not all fruit are apples and so it goes, All NAZIs are socialists but not all socialists are NAZIs, all NAZIs are fascists, not all fascists are NAZIs, as I am sure you are well aware.

I never said otherwise, just that the Nazis were socialists.