Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

[Master Shake]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Are you working for Goebbels in the US department of state propoganda?

No, why, are you?

[Diarmuid]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

No, why, are you?

Yes! I know Heir Goebbels well; he had told me there was another mole blogging in itulip but refused to divulge his / her identity - thought it might be you - sorry for the case of mistaken identity.

[*T*]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

I never said that. I said elsewhere only in worst case. Meaning dire emergency. I'm totally against what has been going on at Gitmo. Everything isn't all black and white. To rule torture out completely is foolish as you don't know what circumstance MAY occur in the future.

What about having principles?

[*T*]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

What kind of doubletalk and abuse?

Do you believe that the terrorists being held at Gitmo should be given court appointed lawyers and be tried in a US criminal court?

Yes. If they are proven guilty, then they be punished. If not, not.

[Raz]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Appreciated. I apologize for calling you racist; I do not (and did not) think you are. I will note that I did not introduce that word into our other discussion until you had brought it up a few times. It seemed a straw man, and I threw it out blatantly to egg you on.

Regardless, I apologize.

Your apology includes a defense of the indefensable. It also includes an inaccurate recollection of events.

Go to this PostStop and read the twenty posts, beginning with your response to hayekvindicated. http://itulip.com/forums/showthread....98895#poststop

It was you who played the race card, two days before my response.
You first threw the R-Bomb at hayekvindicated - and he's not white! That's why I cautioned you about playing that garbage with me.
I know more about racism than most people ever will. And there are few things in this world that will make me rip your head off quicker than playing that card.

Have you read Harper Lee's novel "To Kill a Mockingbird" ? An excellent movie was made from that book with Gregory Peck as the hero, Atticus Finch, the lawyer in 1930s Alabama who defended a black man falsley accused of rape.
The chief villain was a man named Bob Ewell. Take away the whiskey and the grinding poverty and that character would resemble my father. (May God grant him repose.)
I grew up with racism all around me, within my own family. Heard it every day. I've seen not only what it did to the targets of the racists, but I've seen the destruction it causes within the spirit of the racist himself. When I went away to college I was so glad to be removed from that climate, and it was then I began to see that what embarrassed me about my family was not just shameful, but evil.

Then in the mid 1980s I watched the Democratic Party change into the New Left where anything goes. All that counts is winning, and Clinton was the zenith of that game. When liars like Charley Rangell couldn't best their opponents argument they simply used the Alinsky demagogery and called those who disagreed with them "racist". This was the cheap shot of all cheap shots to me.
They used it to shut down debate when they couldn't win using facts and reason. The NeoCons also used it when they questioned the patriotism of anyone who didn't support "W"'s stupid war. It's also demagogery.

You enraged me, Munger. I'm sorry for calling you a joke. You're not a joke. You're an intelligent man who is wrong about certain things and right about some others. But when you throw the R-Bomb you become far more that misguided or wrong: you become a participant in demagogery, a vile accusation that leads to violent response. Using it on hayekvindicated made you appear to be a joke.

If we can't recover honest, civil debate within the political realm we will likely end up with another civil war. And what we are facing economically could be the catalyst.

And yes, I will accept your apology - if it truly is one.

[metalman]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

man, the anger and hurt that's right under the surface... now that will give a man pause. hope you guys work it out. even so, what are the chances for the rest of us.

reading this on itulip... i'll have nightmares tonight.

this is the top 1% of the top 1% who think.

consider

the

rest.

[Chris Coles]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

man, the anger and hurt that's right under the surface... now that will give a man pause. hope you guys work it out. even so, what are the chances for the rest of us.

reading this on itulip... i'll have nightmares tonight.

this is the top 1% of the top 1% who think.

consider

the

rest.

One of the underlying problems is that this sort of thing must have roots as far back in time as the full evolutionary period for the human race. Is perhaps why we split into different basic colours of skin, red, yellow, white and black. Your reference to the problems in China, for example, is very illuminating and previously unknown to me. Overcoming an innate prejudice that harks back perhaps millions of years is an ongoing challenge and we must all thank anyone who, by bringing it to our attention, reminds us all that we have to work hard at being civilised and cannot take anything for granted.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

One of the underlying problems is that this sort of thing must have roots as far back in time ...

Yeah - that river runs deep.

[Master Shake]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Yes! I know Heir Goebbels well; he had told me there was another mole blogging in itulip but refused to divulge his / her identity - thought it might be you - sorry for the case of mistaken identity.

Well, since Herr Goebbels and his posse were socialists, I would focus on those whose posts betray a socialistic mindset. Happy hunting.

[Diarmuid]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Well, since Herr Goebbels and his posse were socialists, I would focus on those whose posts betray a socialistic mindset. Happy hunting.

Well if you are refering to my posts potraying a socialist mindset, you could not be wider from the mark as to my political beliefs, I consider myself a conservative rule of law, consent, limited government, lawful or constitutional money etc., as for post potraying a particular mindset you might do well to take your own advice and do a search for ones potraying a fascist mindset.

[tombat1913]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Rajiv, you have brought us right to the nub of the matter without realising it. Torture is not about getting at information; it is all about the screwed up minds of the perpetrators. Torture is all about the needs of the torturers. The reality is, some people get a very BIG buzz from causing other people harm. Torture is all about satisfying that inner need to harm others. It is sick in the extreme and that is why I find it so unacceptable.

And to expand on the nub, it has been found that most of the interrogation was directed at finding a link between Iraq and Al Qaeda. If you've gone to war under false pretenses it would be prudent to create pretenses, and what better proof than admittance from an insurgent, or any dark skinned Muslim really.

And to you Mr. "it depends on the circumstances", how far will you take it?

[Munger]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Your apology includes a defense of the indefensable. It also includes an inaccurate recollection of events.

Go to this PostStop and read the twenty posts, beginning with your response to hayekvindicated. http://itulip.com/forums/showthread....98895#poststop

It was you who played the race card, two days before my response.
You first threw the R-Bomb at hayekvindicated - and he's not white! That's why I cautioned you about playing that garbage with me.
I know more about racism than most people ever will. And there are few things in this world that will make me rip your head off quicker than playing that card.

Have you read Harper Lee's novel "To Kill a Mockingbird" ? An excellent movie was made from that book with Gregory Peck as the hero, Atticus Finch, the lawyer in 1930s Alabama who defended a black man falsley accused of rape.
The chief villain was a man named Bob Ewell. Take away the whiskey and the grinding poverty and that character would resemble my father. (May God grant him repose.)
I grew up with racism all around me, within my own family. Heard it every day. I've seen not only what it did to the targets of the racists, but I've seen the destruction it causes within the spirit of the racist himself. When I went away to college I was so glad to be removed from that climate, and it was then I began to see that what embarrassed me about my family was not just shameful, but evil.

Then in the mid 1980s I watched the Democratic Party change into the New Left where anything goes. All that counts is winning, and Clinton was the zenith of that game. When liars like Charley Rangell couldn't best their opponents argument they simply used the Alinsky demagogery and called those who disagreed with them "racist". This was the cheap shot of all cheap shots to me.
They used it to shut down debate when they couldn't win using facts and reason. The NeoCons also used it when they questioned the patriotism of anyone who didn't support "W"'s stupid war. It's also demagogery.

You enraged me, Munger. I'm sorry for calling you a joke. You're not a joke. You're an intelligent man who is wrong about certain things and right about some others. But when you throw the R-Bomb you become far more that misguided or wrong: you become a participant in demagogery, a vile accusation that leads to violent response. Using it on hayekvindicated made you appear to be a joke.

If we can't recover honest, civil debate within the political realm we will likely end up with another civil war. And what we are facing economically could be the catalyst.

And yes, I will accept your apology - if it truly is one.

This is obviously a sensitive topic for you and again, I apologize.

But, I will again point out that in the thread you refer to I immediately apologized and clarified - before you ever posted on that thread - stating that I did not mean to assert that Hayek was racist, and that what I meant was that it is too easy to blame our problems on "brown people" when the problem is much deeper.

The rest of our argument was me asserting that there is no requirement for an immigrant to "assimilate" to be accepted into this country as a citizen. And I stand by that. And I do not care if immigrants live within their communities and share a common cultural background that I do not share. It doesn't bother me in the slightest - and actually, I quite enjoy carousing through china town or the hispanic boulevard to check out the sights and sounds. I still think your "Balkan enclave" comment comes across as offensive. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that it just came across wrong.

[tastymannatees]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Spooky - I can't wait to see what our government sponsored car looks like

[Raz]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

This is obviously a sensitive topic for you and again, I apologize.

Libel and slander are always sensitive topics to the recipient of them.

But, I will again point out that in the thread you refer to I immediately apologized and clarified - before you ever posted on that thread - stating that I did not mean to assert that Hayek was racist, and that what I meant was that it is too easy to blame our problems on "brown people" when the problem is much deeper.

And I will point out to you that initially I only warned you about playing the "racist" card with me. I won't play cards with a marked deck.
You read racism into hayekvindicated's argument about California's problems being magnified by illegal aliens without presenting facts that they do not. I have two relatives in California and several friends there as well. They ALL say that it costs their state an enormous amount of money. Common sense would seem to agree and there are studies to back that up. One can be found here: http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigr...caillegals.htm


The rest of our argument was me asserting that there is no requirement for an immigrant to "assimilate" to be accepted into this country as a citizen. And I stand by that. And I do not care if immigrants live within their communities and share a common cultural background that I do not share. It doesn't bother me in the slightest - and actually, I quite enjoy carousing through china town or the hispanic boulevard to check out the sights and sounds. I still think your "Balkan enclave" comment comes across as offensive. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that it just came across wrong.

Now here is where I overreacted based on what I thought you were saying. You are technically correct if you are referring to "freedom of association". And I should have spelled out my position with clarity, but my anger over your false accusations of racism where there is none along with your cavalier statement that illegal "immigration" can also be good for "filling jobs" was the firecracker that cut short my intention to elaborate. Here it is: I do not expect Mexican immigrants to become English, nor do I expect Asians to become English - or Scottish, Irish, German, Italian or any other such "Eurocentric" nonsense. But, I demand that they wait their turn in line, enter our nation legally, and become Americans. A guest-worker program would probably bring some order and sanity to the present anarchic situation, but I will only support that IF legal guest workers must go to the end of the line to await naturalization. Otherwise the ones who respect our laws and wait their turn are cheated and played for chumps.

The problem I have is the present invasion of illegal aliens. They are NOT welcome by me, and I don't give a rat's-rear-end what country they come from or the level of pigment they bring with them.

You are free to disagree with me; you are not free to libel or slander me.

We both are at fault if we cannot have an honest debate about the facts at hand. I might have even come across worse than you.

I accept your apology and offer mine to you for whatever I misrepresented and for losing my temper and civility.
And especially for calling you a joke.
You're wrong, but you're not a joke.:p

[charliebrown]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

what about drugs?

I had a colonoscopy last year, where they give you versed? Even though you are awake you have no recollection. I found myself dressed and waiting for my wife to pick me up. Had no recolection of dressing myself after the procedure. Maybe If asked the question "where's the bomb" my answer might be fantasy and not the truth?? Don't know, would I lie? or be able to lie? Don't know. If one can glean the truth under those circumstances the drugged wouldn't even remember they were interogated.
I was advised before the procedure not to sign any contracts that day.
They did not explain why. Would I make a poor decision, would I just simply not remember agreeing to something?