Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

[Rajiv]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

I presume that you have never heard of Habeas Corpus.

[raja]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Hey guys,

I think Obama's position is far more nuanced and credible than what's being argued here. It appears to me that he's trying to grapple with the issue of how the U.S. government can identify and then deal with committed enemy combatants -- people who will continue to kill Americans and mount attacks if released.

I'm not happy about it, and the idea should be scrutinized in every way. But it's not the cartoon reported on MSNBC....

Read the speech!

Here's the relevant excerpt:

I agree with doharra . . . and I agree with Obama.

What a novel idea -- read the speech -- don't just listen to the media entertainer.

Obama said,

"there may be a number of people who cannot be prosecuted for past crimes, in some cases because evidence may be tainted, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States. Examples of that threat include people who've received extensive explosives training at al Qaeda training camps, or commanded Taliban troops in battle, or expressed their allegiance to Osama bin Laden, or otherwise made it clear that they want to kill Americans. These are people who, in effect, remain at war with the United States.

You're not dealing with with your average murderer or battlefield soldier here, who might or might not go out and commit another murder. You are dealing with people who would like to kill as many Americans in an attack as possible -- in other words, mass murderers -- who believe that they will get a free pass to Muslim Heaven to enjoy innumerable virgins . . . certainly a thousand times better than their current life.

These are religious fanatics IMO, who are eager to die for their holy work. As Obama said, these are people who have "made it clear that they want to kill Americans". In my mind, such a strong level of intent, while not the same as the crime itself, is certainly a crime worthy of "prolonged detention".

It would be a crime to allow them to go back to their stated work . . . .

[Sapiens]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

It would be a crime to allow them to go back to their stated work . . . .

Why don't we just kill them outright and claim self-defense? What the hell, taking their stuff, killing their family should not be motive for them to seek revenge. See, that is the problem with those radicals, they will just not accept the fact that they have been placed on this earth to serve the mighty dollar... :rolleyes:

[Chris Coles]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

The poor helpless president is using overreaching executive power to squash rights, law, and the economy while breaking every single campaign promise... the nice, honorable Chicago Dem/Rezko/ACORN/Alinski/Brzezinski/youth corp/banker/etc. politician needs our help!

The fact that this thread is starting to become an apologia for state abuse and somehow making Obama into a victim sending coded messages for help is sad, delusional, and pathetic.

EDIT: That came out harsher than I meant. But seriously, Obama is not an honorable victim- he is a powerful politician doing crappy things. We should not be anything but derisive.

Judas, for the record, I was laughing as I read that, no problem; I have been called far worse than that in my time. Chris.

[Judas]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Judas, for the record, I was laughing as I read that, no problem; I have been called far worse than that in my time. Chris.

Good, I really wasn't trying to launch an attack. I apologize that it came out that way at first.

I just had a bit of a meltdown trying to think of arguably the most powerful human being on the planet abusing his power as a victim. A gasket popped. ;)

[flintlock]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

So what's your point? That torture is horrible? No kidding.:rolleyes: I never said it wasn't. The fact that lying politicians try to claim it isn't torture to try and weasel out of their responsibilities, that doesn't surprise me.

Like I said, save this for the worst cases. Like child molesters.

By worst case I mean like if you know he put a nuke in a major city but he won't say where. That kind of thing. Not "Where do you keep the camels?"

But realistically, that kind of extreme situation would almost never happen. I'm against torture. But to rule it out would be foolish in my opinion. Never say never.

[Master Shake]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

I presume that you have never heard of Habeas Corpus.

Non-sequiteur. Stateless terrorists have no rights. No Geneva Conventions, no US Constitution.

The majority of those kept at Club Gitmo were living large compared to life in the countries they came from. All this gnashing of teeth and rending of garments because we didn't observe Marquis of Queenbury rules when dealing with these murderous scumbags is every bit a symptom of our decay as is the corruption in our economy and political institutions.

"Men sleep peacefully in their beds at night
because rough men stand ready
to do violence on their behalf."

-George Orwell

[BadJuju]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

"Men sleep peacefully in their beds at night
because rough men stand ready
to do violence on their behalf."

-George Orwell

George Orwell also wrote a book named '1984' that detailed the plight of people in a dystopian future in which their daily lives were severely oppressed by their own government. So I fail to see how anyone can sleep peacefully at night knowing that their government is developing a 'Legal framework' to apprehend them and hold them indefinitely on the basis of preventing a crime before it happens. And to know that the definition of terrorist, at least that held by the government, is so ambiguous that anyone can be labeled one and tried as such should send shivers down the spine of every citizen.

[Diarmuid]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

George Washington has nothing to do with this and this is not just legal crap. People who want to extend Constitutional protections to stateless terrorists are, at best, incredibly naive and/or cognitatively impaired.

Now, I would agree that United States citizens are entitled to the full protections of the Constitution, regardless whether they are traitors or not. But non-citizens who are not part of the armed forces of a soverieign nation are entitled to neither the protection of the Constitution, nor the Geneva Conventions.

"Under the law of nature, all men are born free, every one comes into the world with a right to his own person, which includes the liberty of moving and using it at his own will. This is what is called personal liberty, and is given him by the Author of nature, because necessary for his own sustenance." --Thomas Jefferson: Legal Argument


This is not some high brow intellectual argument, it is a founding principle for protection of individual liberty enshrined in common law, the US Constitution and else where - Jefferrson et al did not say this principle was solely reserved for US citizens they explicitly stated the right was unalienable to MAN, all men, they understood well what can be granted by government can be taken away by government and clearly understood the nature of tyranny.

Any excuse can be contrived for the state to remove liberties as demonstrated through out history. You accuse those who say as such as "incredibly naive and/or cognitatively impaired." I would and do say the same to those who would throw out the legal protections afforded to individuals as unalienable and acknowledged by legal scholars through history and replace them with rights afforded to certain groups of people who fall into certain fictious legal categories such as "citizens".

[Rajiv]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Habeous corpus is common law and does not rely on the constitution -- it predates the US Constitution by many many centuries -- from the previously linked source

Habeas Corpus is an ancient common law prerogative writ - a legal procedure to which you have an undeniable right.

[D-Mack]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

I haven't seen much of her, but I heard she was an Obama cheerleader before the election.

I'm surprised about it.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

how long before ej eats his obama endorsement?

Let it be remembered that I was first to predict this would happen. ;)

While the election polls were open on November 4, 2008, in post 27 of EJ's thread Vote for Obama. Here's why., I wrote:

If Obama wins (I hope he doesn't) then I predict you, ej, will rue the day you made this choice.

[flintlock]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Let it me remembered that I was first to predict this would happen. ;)

While the election polls were open on November 4, 2008, in post 27 of EJ's thread Vote for Obama. Here's why., I wrote:

Good call. But what choice did we have really?

[Master Shake]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

George Orwell also wrote a book named '1984' that detailed the plight of people in a dystopian future in which their daily lives were severely oppressed by their own government. So I fail to see how anyone can sleep peacefully at night knowing that their government is developing a 'Legal framework' to apprehend them and hold them indefinitely on the basis of preventing a crime before it happens. And to know that the definition of terrorist, at least that held by the government, is so ambiguous that anyone can be labeled one and tried as such should send shivers down the spine of every citizen.

I worry about government gone amuck using asset forfeiture laws, RICO, eminent domain land seizure, wetlands legislation to achieve de facto taking of property, cap-and-trade carbon credit bullshit and even speed cameras. There's plenty to be worried about in terms of the assault on individual liberty. However, worrying about the so-called rights of stateless terrorists is not a cause for concern. Not to me.

[Master Shake]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

"Under the law of nature, all men are born free, every one comes into the world with a right to his own person, which includes the liberty of moving and using it at his own will. This is what is called personal liberty, and is given him by the Author of nature, because necessary for his own sustenance." --Thomas Jefferson: Legal Argument


This is not some high brow intellectual argument, it is a founding principle for protection of individual liberty enshrined in common law, the US Constitution and else where - Jefferrson et al did not say this principle was solely reserved for US citizens they explicitly stated the right was unalienable to MAN, all men, they understood well what can be granted by government can be taken away by government and clearly understood the nature of tyranny.

Any excuse can be contrived for the state to remove liberties as demonstrated through out history. You accuse those who say as such as "incredibly naive and/or cognitatively impaired." I would and do say the same to those who would throw out the legal protections afforded to individuals as unalienable and acknowledged by legal scholars through history and replace them with rights afforded to certain groups of people who fall into certain fictious legal categories such as "citizens".

When Jefferson became President, he did not deal with the Barbary pirates by arresting them and bringing them back to stand trial. He dealt with them by use of and threat of deadly force. The Barbary pirates had no legal protections under our Constitution; neither do the Islamic terrorists at Club Gitmo.