Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

[LargoWinch]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

There is nothing new under the sun. If you want to read an account of how the game is played, including how the legal code is liberally interpreted to suit the need of the at anytime present administration, read this book :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago



Solzhenitsyn tells you how hardly anyone resists arrest. But you must read the first chapters of this book to really understand why they do not resist.

Thanks Sapiens, I am always looking for great book recommendations from the community. I am getting the above-noted.

[audrey_girl]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Absolutely right! What is he supposed to do? Another complete mess left to him by the most incompetent, morally disgusting administration to ever occupy the white house.

Put them on trial? There was no evidence collected for any crimes! Many of these detainees were turned over to the military by their neighbors just to collect the big monetary rewards that were offered. They will finally be able to go home. But what about those who freely admit to being Al Qaeda? There is no evidence that they've committed any "crimes", but they are sworn to do harm to Americans and others. What can you do with them? Most countries don't want them. Are you going to send them to Afghanistan to kill the local populations? Or do you hold them in indefinite detention until Al Qaeda changes or is defeated?

Obama was left with another huge mess that has no good solutions. New laws and policies will need to be developed and they will challenge the principles of civilized societies that must deal with an uncivilized threat.

You make some good points, but by denying even the Al Qaeda detainees their basic human rights we are creating a very dangerous precedent here that I have no doubt will one day be turned on American citizens.

Robert Bolt, Man for All Seasons:

[LargoWinch]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

I believe that he is reaching out to the LAW of the nation; the people that make and administer the law; asking them to take responsibility for the fate of the detainees. That he has discovered he is powerless to do more than make such a speech and hope that everyone outside recognises he needs help.

That is a deep and interesting theory. Could this echoes Eisenhower's farewell address?


Meanwhile...Ron Paul is -as always- a lot more direct on the issue(s), as seen here in his May 19 "bad dream" speech (4min.).

He does explicitly in this speech warn of "Revolutionary Changes in the not so distant future".

[Wild Style]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

How is what Obama said any different from what Bush said/did? Sounds like he is just towing the line. I think people are getting all bent out of shape because they bought into the propaganda and now they feel like they have egg on their faces. I guess this will teach people one valuable lesson, the game is rigged.

[LargoWinch]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Ventura was furious this week about water boarding:

[Rajiv]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Then there is this article - Ice Water and Sweatboxes - The long and sadistic history behind the CIA's torture techniques.

[Raz]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Absolutely right! What is he supposed to do? Another complete mess left to him by the most incompetent, morally disgusting administration to ever occupy the white house.

Put them on trial? There was no evidence collected for any crimes! Many of these detainees were turned over to the military by their neighbors just to collect the big monetary rewards that were offered. They will finally be able to go home. But what about those who freely admit to being Al Qaeda? There is no evidence that they've committed any "crimes", but they are sworn to do harm to Americans and others. What can you do with them? Most countries don't want them. Are you going to send them to Afghanistan to kill the local populations? Or do you hold them in indefinite detention until Al Qaeda changes or is defeated?

Obama was left with another huge mess that has no good solutions. New laws and policies will need to be developed and they will challenge the principles of civilized societies that must deal with an uncivilized threat.

I agree with some of your points, and being a PaleoConservative I probably blame "W" for more than you do.
But, in all fairness Clinton left Bush a mess with Al Quaida - which "W" the Dumbass managed to make into a far BIGGER mess.

The most incompetent, morally disgusting administration to ever occupy the White House?

Incompetent, yes; morally disgusting? Only if you develop amnesia for the period from January 20, 1993-January 20, 2001

[Diarmuid]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

The Geneva Conventions do not apply to stateless combatants/terrorists.

Military Commissions Act (PDF).According to this Act, an "unlawful enemy combatant" is to be defined as:

"an individual engaged in hostilities against the United States who is not a lawful enemy combatant."

This basically means that if a person is not a soldier in the service of a foreign government, but is nevertheless engaging in "hostilities" against the United States, then this person is an unlawful enemy combatant. Notice that this definition does not require that such a person be an "alien," which accordingly leaves open the possibility that this designation could also be applied to an American citizen.

The term is just legal crap used to deny habeas corpus and due process, which are basic human rights and do not or should not require citzenship of any particular state. If they are guilty try and convict under the US legal system, otherwise release them, there is no complication.

I dont think George Washington when addressing congress for the final time in 1796 had in mind pre-emptive wars, cronny capitalism, oligarchy,the dismantling of the justice system, etc. when he impeached the almighty for providential care to be extended to the United States


"and I can not omit the occasion to congratulate you and my country on the success of the experiment, nor to repeat my fervent supplications to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe and Sovereign Arbiter of Nations that His providential care may still be extended to the United States, that the virtue and happiness of the people may be preserved, and that the Government which they have instituted for the protection of their liberties may be perpetual."
..Washington's final annual message to congress - december 7, 1796

[metalman]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

protection of liberties long ago took a back seat to protection of the 'right to consume'.

[Sapiens]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Thanks for the laugh, you reminded me of this passage from Frederick Douglas' book My Bondage and My Freedom:


My Bondage and My Freedom ... By Frederick Douglass

[Judas]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

The poor helpless president is using overreaching executive power to squash rights, law, and the economy while breaking every single campaign promise... the nice, honorable Chicago Dem/Rezko/ACORN/Alinski/Brzezinski/youth corp/banker/etc. politician needs our help!

The fact that this thread is starting to become an apologia for state abuse and somehow making Obama into a victim sending coded messages for help is sad, delusional, and pathetic.

EDIT: That came out harsher than I meant. But seriously, Obama is not an honorable victim- he is a powerful politician doing crappy things. We should not be anything but derisive.

[Munger]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Ventura was furious this week about water boarding:

Conservative radio host gets waterboarded: lasts 6 seconds before admitting it is "absolutely torture":
http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/05/con...-waterboarded/

Also:

[cmalbatros]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

The only thing that's changed is the illusion.

[Raz]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

The only thing that's changed is the illusion.

You hit the Bullseye, albatros !

The two major political parties have for the most part
become one: The RepubliCrat Party.

Without a viable Third Party we are doomed.

[Master Shake]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Military Commissions Act (PDF).According to this Act, an "unlawful enemy combatant" is to be defined as:

"an individual engaged in hostilities against the United States who is not a lawful enemy combatant."

This basically means that if a person is not a soldier in the service of a foreign government, but is nevertheless engaging in "hostilities" against the United States, then this person is an unlawful enemy combatant. Notice that this definition does not require that such a person be an "alien," which accordingly leaves open the possibility that this designation could also be applied to an American citizen.

The term is just legal crap used to deny habeus corpus and due process, which are basic human rights and do not or should not require citzenship of any particular state. If they are guilty try and convict under the US legal system, otherwise release them, there is no complication.

I dont think George Washington when addressing congress for the final time in 1796 had in mind pre-emptive wars, cronny capitalism, oligarchy,the dismantling of the justice system, etc. when he impeached the almighty for providential care to be extended to the United States


"and I can not omit the occasion to congratulate you and my country on the success of the experiment, nor to repeat my fervent supplications to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe and Sovereign Arbiter of Nations that His providential care may still be extended to the United States, that the virtue and happiness of the people may be preserved, and that the Government which they have instituted for the protection of their liberties may be perpetual."
..Washington's final annual message to congress - december 7, 1796

George Washington has nothing to do with this and this is not just legal crap. People who want to extend Constitutional protections to stateless terrorists are, at best, incredibly naive and/or cognitatively impaired.

Now, I would agree that United States citizens are entitled to the full protections of the Constitution, regardless whether they are traitors or not. But non-citizens who are not part of the armed forces of a soverieign nation are entitled to neither the protection of the Constitution, nor the Geneva Conventions.