Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

[Munger]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

anyone know a free country that i can move to?

New Freeland - watch more funny videos

[don]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Surprised? No.

Empires tend to concentrate power in their executive branch and when in peril become progressively more repressive.

That's the historical record.

If McCain was fronting for the same things- the above, the financial oligarch bailouts, expanding the wars, etc. would the responses be any different? That's a question of, albeit minor, interest.

[Rajiv]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

First of all we must put up the actual words rather than a link:

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then... they came for me... And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

Then we should ask; who wrote the speech?

First they came... ---- is a poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group.

Poem (1976 version)

Original

Translation

Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten, habe ich geschwiegen; ich war ja kein Kommunist. Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten, habe ich geschwiegen; ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat. Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten, habe ich nicht protestiert; ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter. Als sie die Juden holten, habe ich geschwiegen; ich war ja kein Jude. Als sie mich holten, gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.

When the Nazis came for the communists, I remained silent; I was not a communist. Then they locked up the social democrats, I remained silent; I was not a social democrat. Then they came for the trade unionists, I did not protest; I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, I did not speak out; I was not a Jew. When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.

[metalman]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

can always count on rajiv to get to the source. thx!

and kudos to maddow... no matter that i usually cannot stand to watch her kieth oberman imitation. how long before ej eats his obama endorsement?

[Sharky]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

I'm no Obama fan by a long shot, and I'm against indefinite detention. These are prisoners of war that he's talking about, right? Are prisoners of war normally covered by the constitution? If not, then how can his proposal be seen as violating "the rule of law," etc? Shouldn't something like the Geneva Convention provide the appropriate guidelines here?

[BadJuju]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

I'm no Obama fan by a long shot, and I'm against indefinite detention. These are prisoners of war that he's talking about, right? Are prisoners of war normally covered by the constitution? If not, then how can his proposal be seen as violating "the rule of law," etc? Shouldn't something like the Geneva Convention provide the appropriate guidelines here?

Generally, you would be correct; however, it is the definition of terrorist that is murky. According to the law, anyone could be a terrorist, regardless of the fact that they may even be American nationals. And that is where the problem stems from.

[Rajiv]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Are prisoners of war normally covered by the constitution?

They are covered by the Geneva Conventions

[Slimprofits]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Generally, you would be correct; however, it is the definition of terrorist that is murky. According to the law, anyone could be a terrorist, regardless of the fact that they may even be American nationals. And that is where the problem stems from.

Not only that, but the permanent nature of a war on terror (sic).

[audrey_girl]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

Hey guys,

I think Obama's position is far more nuanced and credible than what's being argued here. It appears to me that he's trying to grapple with the issue of how the U.S. government can identify and then deal with committed enemy combatants -- people who will continue to kill Americans and mount attacks if released.

I'm not happy about it, and the idea should be scrutinized in every way. But it's not the cartoon reported on MSNBC....

Read the speech!

Here's the relevant excerpt:

excuse me, but WTF is wrong with the constitutional way of handling these cases???

with a speedy, trial by jury under the view of a non-biased judge, and with the right to an attorney.

didn't we just have an election here to throw out the previous gang of thieves and torturors? for what? to be replaced by another group?

this is a very dangerous road we have started down -

I don't understand Americans anymore, have they lost the ability to think? Does all it take is a new, cutesy turn-of-phrase to make something ugly and evil OK and alright to do??

Quantative Easing- how about illegal money printing, and stealing from seniors, the poor, and those on fixed incomes...

Enhanced interrogations - how about illegal torture and killings in an offshore gulag called Gitmo

Now "Prolonged Detention"????

give me a break

[metalman]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

excuse me, but WTF is wrong with the constitutional way of handling these cases???

with a speedy, trial by jury under the view of a non-biased judge, and with the right to an attorney.

didn't we just have an election here to throw out the previous gang of thieves and torturors? for what? to be replaced by another group?

this is a very dangerous road we have started down -

I don't understand Americans anymore, have they lost the ability to think? Does all it take is a new, cutesy turn-of-phrase to make something ugly and evil OK and alright to do??

Quantative Easing- how about illegal money printing, and stealing from seniors, the poor, and those on fixed incomes...

Enhanced interrogations - how about illegal torture and killings in an offshore gulag called Gitmo

Now "Prolonged Detention"????

give me a break

[Mn_Mark]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

excuse me, but WTF is wrong with the constitutional way of handling these cases???

with a speedy, trial by jury under the view of a non-biased judge, and with the right to an attorney.

In my opinion the proper way to handle these cases is the way they would have been handled up to about 1945: when you capture an enemy who is not wearing a uniform, murders civilians, violates every rule of war, you first interrogate him and then you hang him or at best put him up against a wall before a firing squad.

This idea that these people deserve to be treated as though they were entitled to the protections of the U.S. legal system is preposterous. By this logic, every enemy spy or other violator of the Geneva Conventions that we ever killed (like the Nazis who dressed up as US soldiers to infiltrate our lines) was terribly wronged by us.

You have to understand there is a difference between an enemy in a war and someone who commits a crime on our soil.

That's what's so ridiculous about all this. All this concern about the rights of people who by any historical standard would be considered the lowest of the low enemy combatants. Hang them and be done with it. It sets no bad precedent for our freedoms any more than it did all the times in the past when enemy combatants were punished in this way.

[BadJuju]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

I think that is an atrocious way to handle things. It is barbaric and essentially says life is forfeit if you are not one of us. Not to mention that anyone, even an American citizen, can be labeled a terrorist and thus an enemy combatant. Furthermore, soldiers, those that wage the war, are never involved in going to war to begin with, and are usually there for economic reasons.

[loweyecue]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

OMG things are even worse than i thought, I may start watching Alax Jones (for real)

This is starting to be like a freaken B movie

Excellent news coverage here. Guess the audacity of hope is now dead. Watching her make her points I was having flashes of Orwellian description of the pigs starting to walk like men. Big brother is back. There is only one universal truth about politicians, they will eventually sell there ideals to stay in power.

[audrey_girl]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

In my opinion the proper way to handle these cases is the way they would have been handled up to about 1945: when you capture an enemy who is not wearing a uniform, murders civilians, violates every rule of war, you first interrogate him and then you hang him or at best put him up against a wall before a firing squad.

This idea that these people deserve to be treated as though they were entitled to the protections of the U.S. legal system is preposterous. By this logic, every enemy spy or other violator of the Geneva Conventions that we ever killed (like the Nazis who dressed up as US soldiers to infiltrate our lines) was terribly wronged by us.

You have to understand there is a difference between an enemy in a war and someone who commits a crime on our soil.

That's what's so ridiculous about all this. All this concern about the rights of people who by any historical standard would be considered the lowest of the low enemy combatants. Hang them and be done with it. It sets no bad precedent for our freedoms any more than it did all the times in the past when enemy combatants were punished in this way.

with the utmost respect...

didn't we provide these basic rights to even the horrible Nazis leadership during the Nuremberg trials?

There is a historical precedent here.

[metalman]

Re: Meet our new American Fuhrer: Barack Obama

with the utmost respect...

didn't we provide these basic rights to even the horrible Nazis leadership during the Nuremberg trials?

There is a historical precedent here.

the measure is how you treat nazi leaders vs followers. leaders get a fair trial. followers get a bullet to the head... or torture if captured. has always been so.