California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

[Beavus]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

What happened when farm laborers tried to form labor unions? Why were they not allowed to form unions?

Why are farm laborers treated differently than regular employees?

Why don't farm laborers recieve the same level of pay/benefits as 16 year old kids at McDonalds?

How many US citizens are willing to become, and/or train to become farm laborers?

How much would food cost if we had to pay farm laborers the same level of benefits as American citizens?

If we magically removed all illegal farm laborers from our farms in California, would any of the 10-20% unemployed in our state be willing and able to perform the jobs of the farm laborers?

Are farm laborers treated like second class citizens in our nation? Will they ever recieve rights comperable to American Citizens?

What other industries have low cost labor trickled into? Who was doing those jobs the low cost labor does now, 10, 20, 50 years ago?

Just some thoughts, no responses required.

We are all humans on this planet. I find it sad and shocking that we treat farm laborers in the US like second class citizens. Can we not at a minimum feed all humans on the face of the planet? Can we not clothe all the humans on the face of the planet? Can we not vacinate all humans on earth? Must a portion of the worlds population work 40 hours a week so the remaining portion only works XX hours a week, or less?

[BadJuju]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

need to edit

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

How much would food cost if we had to pay farm laborers the same level of benefits as American citizens?

When low wages are illegal, only illegals will have low wages.

In other words, I'm suggesting that part of what we're seeing here are (un?)intended consequences of minimum wage laws.

[lurker]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

When low wages are illegal, only illegals will have low wages.

In other words, I'm suggesting that part of what we're seeing here are (un?)intended consequences of minimum wage laws.

And a larger part is the deliberate blind eye that lawmakers turn when asked to police big agriculture (which completely rules California's central valley).

Hell, even water rights and the EPA are afraid to take on big ag. in CA. What chance for employment law to be followed.

I completely agree, though, that farm labor should be treated no differently from any other form of employment.

I have heard (sorry no references so I may be way off) that if farm labor was paid the minimum wage and give such terms and conditions that citizens would do it, that we would only see a small (<10%) rise in the price of fresh produce.

[don]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

This ain't new.

I just finished writing an article, on a non-economic matter, that touched upon Filipino emigration laws. During the resistance to US colonization in the islands, the Chinese Exclusion Act was renewed, with Filipinos included, meaning excluded from the US.

That lasted until 1920, when Dole in Hawaii and the Central Valley big farms wanted to bring in surplus Filipino ag-workers to compete with both white (it was too early for the "whites won't do this work" mantra) and Mexican ag-workers. Only Filipino males were allowed in. The ratio of Filipino men to women in California was soon 14 to 1. With too many farmhands and many social tensions between the Pinoy, Mexican and white pickers, Big Ag was in the driver's seat.

Did they ever get out?

[Raz]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

If there are jobs to be filled, is it not a net gain for the U.S. to have them filled? Do you believe in a free market or not?

As far as requiring immigrants to "assimilate" - firstly, this is a straw man. Secondly, this is your bias, and the constitution and laws of the U.S. have no such requirement, for good reason.

Munger, with all the respect that I'm struggling to muster, can you actually read?
I said that lurker's points were well taken.
Go back and read his post.
Then read mine. Then read them again.

Of course it is a net gain for the ECONOMY of the United States to have an unfilled job filled, otherwise production and/or productivity suffers. And yes, I'm almost certain that I have several million times more confidence in the free market than you do. But, pardon my french, what in the hell does that have to do with ILLEGAL immigration??? I'm in favor of a VERY STRICT guest worker program - but not amnesty for those who have no regard or respect for the laws of the United States. Like the people who march though our streets carrying the flag of a foreign country, spouting the Leftist crap about "no one is illegal"! And before you sling your always-at-the-ready "racist" charge: (1) I'm not an e-e-evil Republican (too conservative for that, and haven't voted for one since Reagan), and (2) the best way to deal with illegal aliens in our midst is to place such onerous fines on employers who hire them that it just won't be worth what they save by paying slave wages.

As far as your statement about immigrants not being required to "assimilate": my first thought is that your statement is so utterly ridiculous it's not even worthy of a response. But, since I am so "biased" (unlike you, Munger, who have no biases and just ooze objectivity and altruism from every pore of your thin skin) I will attempt to explain it. Are you telling me that the United States has no requirements for citizenship that include being able to understand the English language? None whatsoever? If not, then how do such candidates take the OATH of loyalty to the United States? Are they allowed to afirm it in Farsi, Korean, Italian, Mongolian, Spanish, Arabic, or Esperanto? Thanks to people like you in 1990 the Democrats passed a revision to the Immigration Act of 1906 allowing some exceptions to the English requirement for testing procedures. I hope the current law is not as bad as I think. Are you comfortable granting CITIZENSHIP to people who profess no loyalty to the United States of America and it's laws? If you agree with that statement, then who is building straw men? If you don't agree that we should not grant citizenship to such people, then you don't want to know what I think of your sorry ass.

"If an Illegal Alien is really just an "Undocumented Immigrant", then your neighborhood Drug Dealer is only an "Unlicensed Pharmacist".

Yes I'm mocking the violence the Left has done to our language, courtesy of lovely people like Saul Alinsky.

[cjppjc]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

Yes I'm mocking the violence the Left has done to our language, courtesy of lovely people like Saul Alinsky.

Do you adhere to the idea of torture being called Enhanced interrogation techniques?

[Raz]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

Do you adhere to the idea of torture being called Enhanced interrogation techniques?

No I do not. But I do appreciate the humor when the Left has their own mendacity thrown back in their faces.

[cjppjc]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

No I do not.

I AM glad to hear that. Can I assume you understood the point I was trying to make?

[Raz]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

I AM glad to hear that. Can I assume you understood the point I was trying to make?

The written word is different than the spoken word. We can't hear a tone of voice nor do we see the eyes and facial expression of the writer, so I've learned to not assume too much when reading a post.

My use of the word "mendacity" should lead you to conclude that I view waterboarding as a form of physical torture, although it's hard for me to put it in the same category as electrodes attached to genitals, ripping out fingernails, Vietnamese rope-torture, etc. And the captured members of Al Quaida or the Taliban deserve the worst that they could possibly get.

Be that as it may, the people of the United States, through their [often idiotic] representatives assembled in Congress have voted against the use of physical torture, so I believe that should be respected - even if we lose a city and 500,000 American lives.

But in the aftermath of such an event we just might see the law changed as it pertains to the use of torture on terrorists.

[cjppjc]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

The written word is different than the spoken word. We can't hear a tone of voice nor do we see the eyes and facial expression of the writer, so I've learned to not assume too much when reading a post.

How true. Someone once said language is a terrible way to communicate.

[Munger]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

First, this particular thread was discussing blaming CA's woes on an influx of immigrants from our neghbors to the south. I take it from your recent response that you are of the position that, legal or illegal, immigrants filling vacant jobs is a net plus to the economy.

If this is your position, then why use incisive terms like "Balkan enclave?" It smacks of childish xenophobia.

I do not know you, but I will again call-out the bile that you vomited-up as the worst sort of insouciant name-calling that the Michael Savage's of the world engage in. In that, it is hardly worth discussion.

Perhaps I should give you the benefit of the doubt because, as you have noted, the written word lacks subtlety; so perhaps I misread you.

I would suggest, however, that you look up the word "assimilate" and (1) tell me that "assimilate" means the same thing as learning English; (2) parse the constitution and the U.S. Codes and point where it says immigrants must assimilate; and (3) note that usage examples of the word "assimilate" discuss a nation assimilating an immigrant, not the other way around.

Nowhere did I assert that citizenship should be granted to people who are not loyal to the US. Rather, I do not understand the fear that you seem to have of people from other cultures.

[charliebrown]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

I am an american born and raised software engineer. If you are young, in your 20's you may not see to many american born engineers because we fear outsourcing. I am one of the best engineers in my field, I'm the person that is called when a problem can't be solved etc. But I still have a hard time convicing a prospective client of my worth when, I'm competing against someone in India with a Ph.D and works for $30.00 an hour.

I had the fortune of going to college in the late 70's and early 80's when a public education at a good school cost $1000 a year, and there were plenty of good jobs, that paid well. Bell Labs, Xerox Parc, IBM, Ingres etc.

Now young kids probably pay more like 20K a year for thier school, and the really good jobs are gone. A lot of software now is off the shelf, developed overseas, and now our country does the QA testing, and software integration to get it all to work. The work is lower quality, pay has stagnated, employment stability doesn't exist.

This has discouraged many kids from becoming engineers. There's not much of a future in it anymore.

If they would let the economy collapse into debt spiral, and housing, medicine, food etc. would dramatically decline in price, maybe our intellectual workers can compete with the rest of the world.

[Raz]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

First, this particular thread was discussing blaming CA's woes on an influx of immigrants from our neghbors to the south. I take it from your recent response that you are of the position that, legal or illegal, immigrants filling vacant jobs is a net plus to the economy.

If this is your position, then why use incisive terms like "Balkan enclave?" It smacks of childish xenophobia.

I do not know you, but I will again call-out the bile that you vomited-up as the worst sort of insouciant name-calling that the Michael Savage's of the world engage in. In that, it is hardly worth discussion.

Perhaps I should give you the benefit of the doubt because, as you have noted, the written word lacks subtlety; so perhaps I misread you.

I would suggest, however, that you look up the word "assimilate" and (1) tell me that "assimilate" means the same thing as learning English; (2) parse the constitution and the U.S. Codes and point where it says immigrants must assimilate; and (3) note that usage examples of the word "assimilate" discuss a nation assimilating an immigrant, not the other way around.

Nowhere did I assert that citizenship should be granted to people who are not loyal to the US. Rather, I do not understand the fear that you seem to have of people from other cultures.

FIRST of all, Munger, the people you seem intent on referring to as "immigrants" are NOT immigrants: they are illegal, invading aliens. Pure, plain and simple.

SECOND, I don't think your last paragraph concerning ctizenship has much meaning since you apparently think that an "immigrant" is anyone who manages to slip across our borders undetected. Can't imagine what "citizenship" means to you.

THIRDLY, assimilate means: "to bring into conformity;to adapt or adjust; to modify". (Source: Random House Collegiate Dictionary.)
If learning the commonly used language of the place I'm choosing to live doesn't mean to adapt or adjust, then what in the world does it mean? Should I move to Italy and expect all of them to learn English in order to communicate with me? When they march through our streets carrying Mexican flags, shouting "no human being is illegal" and "everything for the Race", they apparently have no intention of being Americans - unless they get to define that on their own terms.
If they have no obligation to learn enough English to function throughout American society, or assimilate American customs and norms, or read the Constitution - or even a newspaper, then what is Naturalization all about? (Hint: "To invest an alien with the rights and privileges of a citizen; to introduce or adopt foreign practices or words; to adapt or adjust to a new place or environment as if native to it". - same dictionary)

"...I do not understand the fear that you seem to have of people from other cultures."

"Childish xenophobia" and "name-calling" wasn't enough, huh? You just couldn't resist pulling out that 'ole "racist" card, could you Munger. All of those who insist on the enforcement of our immigration laws must be racists. They couldn't possibly have a real concern for the stability of American society, much less the rule of law. No, they're all racists.

When you can't accept being wrong, just imply that they're all "racists"!

You don't need to respond because I don't consider your opinion to be worth a cup of warm spit.:mad::mad:

[Raz]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

Bingo. Hayek is completely full of shit - so full in fact that it can't help but flow out of his mouth and all over these pretty green forums.

It's fun to rant about all those brown people though - a lot easier than thinking things throuh. Keep that up, it will get you far.

Bingo to you, Munger. You're full of more shit than Hayek excreted in two lifetimes.

And keep playing your "racist" card, Munger. It's bringing you to near total blindness.