California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

[Munger]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

Ha! Indian you say. I guess someone here made an incorrect ASS-umption. Perhaps they prejudged you based on your stand on illegal immigration. He-haw!!!

Love it when the only argument a liberal has to support their love of illegal immigration is to cry "racism!" Sorry Munger, but why not try making an intelligent argument, if you have one, and not resort to knee-jerk response name calling. Your response was just as bigoted as any cross burning clansman's.

I have found that immigrants are often the most prejudiced against immigrants from other countries.

I probably overstated what I meant: I am not calling you racist, but pointing out that picking immigrants is an easy scapegoat for a problem that is much deeper. If anything we need immigrants to support our upside-down pyramid demographics. Japan severely restricted immigration, and along with their even greater demographic aging problem are in a near crisis. Maybe their robots will save them.

[charliebrown]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

well said, it the people's services that always take the first cut.
California is posturing to cut, schools (although these could probably be trimmed, although it will be the classrooms that get cut, not the palatial infratructure of new buildings or the administrators perks and salaries). fire, and released prisoner WTH!

How about the california clean air board that just got thier policies foisted upon the the rest of the 50 states, then is back at work drafting a plan for 2020 standards before the ink has dried on this one. How many 6 figure lawyers, and academic pukes sit on this board? It is probably under executive control so the government should have free reign just to send them packing.

[ASH]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

Yeah, health care costs money and one poor kid should die; bc his family has no money..... MEANWHILE, bankers rob the country blind, in-debt it beyond belief and steal from the poor via an inflation tax and its "inevitable and needed to save our country".....

All of that and yes i agree "life is not fair"....

I think healthcare is one of the basic necessities of life... I would not be against universal health care for everyone; money better spent on the average individual than the robber bankers....

But, possibly, we can't actually afford to bail-out the bankers, either.

I think the whole point is that the ability to go into debt prevents both individuals and governments from making tough budgetary decisions, but there is a limit to credit. California, consumers, and many companies have hit that limit sooner than the federal government, but the fact that the Feds can still borrow to bail-out bankers doesn't imply that deficits on that scale are sustainable.

[allenjs]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

Yeah, health care costs money and one poor kid should die; bc his family has no money..... MEANWHILE, bankers rob the country blind, in-debt it beyond belief and steal from the poor via an inflation tax and its "inevitable and needed to save our country".....

All of that and yes i agree "life is not fair"....

I think healthcare is one of the basic necessities of life... I would not be against universal health care for everyone; money better spent on the average individual than the robber bankers....

This is a false choice. The poor kid will die anyway, even if his parents have a billion dollars. So far as I can tell, not a single human being has ever escaped death, no matter what we are willing to pay.

You may call this "life is not fair". But life is life. It is what it is. Life is pretty awesome, even if has to end.

Too many people say "health care is a basic right" but by their votes and actions show that they really believe that "immortality is a basic right". That's a seriously messed up belief. Until people accept that death is our birthright, we'll keep having these absurd debates.

[aaron]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

Too many people say "health care is a basic right" but by their votes and actions show that they really believe that "immortality is a basic right". That's a seriously messed up belief. Until people accept that death is our birthright, we'll keep having these absurd debates.

YES, this is the problem!

I am not sure if this is a uniquely American-held belief, but I did not see this attitude in China/Taiwan.

What do European, Japanese and Canadians expect from their health care system? Can you get 3 liver transplants?

[karim0028]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

YES, this is the problem!

I am not sure if this is a uniquely American-held belief, but I did not see this attitude in China/Taiwan.

What do European, Japanese and Canadians expect from their health care system? Can you get 3 liver transplants?

Im not talking about this specific case or the amount of transplants but if there is a shot of living it should be done.... I mean seriously we just indebted our grandchildren so bankers wouldnt have to pay their debts, but everyone screams bloody murder when some one has 3 transplants (im assuming the doctor had some reason for thinking they would be successfull)... We dont know the kids medical scenario and yes everyone is destined to die, you cant escape death, but the medical care you get makes all the difference....

Now lets use that same logic at the scene of an accident; "no reason to spend money on this guy, he is bound to die anyway".... Seems to me we are willing to play god based on someones ability to pay... There is something to be said for compassion for your fellow human being; im not asking that they live in Mcmansions on the public dime, but health care is health care; hell, some people take their dogs in for surgeries that cost more than the average persons monthly rent...

No offense, but It really chafes my a@@ to hear that logic right after the bankers just finished bending us over a table and had their way with us like some cheap hooker; yet we look at the little guy and say he has no rights aside from what he can afford to pay for..... Our govt spends so much money on useless bullshit that makes absolutely no sense, i think in the grand scheme of things if managed properly healthcare could be a small fraction of the other expenditures....

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

I think healthcare is one of the basic necessities of life...

Do you think that the national government should provide for the basic necessities of life?

I can't quite tell who's thinking what on this thread. Medicine (and immigration) has become one of those loaded subjects. Words get so twisted around that one can't really have a sensible discussion. The tin-foil-hat conspiricist in me is sure that this confusion is deliberate.

Be that as it may ... the best I can do is speak plainly.

When people say something is a "right", it has come to mean unthinking support for nationalizing it, with the discussion then confined to whether or how to ration it or pay for it or control costs.

When and so long as something is nationalized in a fascist country (which the United States has become in considerable part) the only ones who consistently benefit are the big interests who have the power and money needed to influence the legislatures, administrators, regulators, beauracrats and judges in the national government.

It is absolutely essential to the well being of a nations citizens over the long haul that most matters, even those of great import such as health, are determined at more local levels in diverse ways. Thus the interests of ordinary citizens will -sometimes- be well served, rather than consistently abused. Thus the corruption that ultimately destroys all nations can be moderated for another day.

Only matters that really cannot be resolved at more local levels by diverse organizations (families, neighbors, churches, charities, governments, individuals, businesses, whatever) need to be handled by the national government.

It is essential to the well being of a people that some beauracrat in Washington, DC not be deciding the individual medical care of any individual, outside that beaurcrats only family.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

No offense, but It really chafes my a@@ to hear that logic right after the bankers just finished bending us over a table and had their way with us like some cheap hooker; yet we look at the little guy and say he has no rights aside from what he can afford to pay for..... Our govt spends so much money on useless bullshit that makes absolutely no sense, i think in the grand scheme of things if managed properly healthcare could be a small fraction of the other expenditures....

Well, yeah, that's a good reason for nationalizing healthcare ... nationalizing the banks was less justifiable and we've already done that :rolleyes::rolleyes::eek::mad:.

[flintlock]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

I have found that immigrants are often the most prejudiced against immigrants from other countries.

I probably overstated what I meant: I am not calling you racist, but pointing out that picking immigrants is an easy scapegoat for a problem that is much deeper. If anything we need immigrants to support our upside-down pyramid demographics. Japan severely restricted immigration, and along with their even greater demographic aging problem are in a near crisis. Maybe their robots will save them.

I thought you probably didn't mean to come off so strong, but got caught up in the moment. I just think we should be able to argue a point on this forum without calling names.

I agree that its easy to scapegoat immigrants, and we'll see a lot more of that the worse unemployment gets. But they certainly are not the cause of this country's woes.

I think this country has too many people, not a shortage. The only reason for the immigration boom was a temporary labor shortage due to the FIRE economy. I believe, like Itulip, that the FIRE economy is dead and will not be resurrected. Jobs will become the problem, not a shortage of labor like in the past.

[rogermexico]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

To the loony left, anyone to the right of Kucinich is "Far Right". Bush (who is actually a Christian socialist) is supposed to be "Extreme Right" by this definition.

+ 1

California needs to dismantle their welfare state - now that the RE bubble has popped and there is no money, they actually have a chance to starve the union and pension fund beast - unless the fed prints the money for them.

At a minimum, they should empty the prisons of all non-violent drug offenders

[lurker]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

YES, this is the problem!

I am not sure if this is a uniquely American-held belief, but I did not see this attitude in China/Taiwan.

What do European, Japanese and Canadians expect from their health care system? Can you get 3 liver transplants?

I think the concept of rationing is well established in the UK, even if the process of determining how to ration still requires attention.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle4498748.ece

The US system IS the road block to sensible debate, because it is a system that encourages individual selfishness, rather than open debate about how to obtain the best overall quality of life (not necessary length of life) for all citizens.

Universal healthcare is a pre-requisite to any sensible debate about healthcare rationing, but it is disingenuous to pretend that it's possible to have a healthcare system that does not ration.

[lurker]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

I think this country has too many people, not a shortage. The only reason for the immigration boom was a temporary labor shortage due to the FIRE economy. I believe, like Itulip, that the FIRE economy is dead and will not be resurrected. Jobs will become the problem, not a shortage of labor like in the past.

There may be too many people, but it's not clear to me that american born citizens are qualified for what jobs there are.

I'm an immigrant, I came here on a whim on an L1 visa ... a chance to visit another country. I had no intention of staying longer than a year or two, but then I met my (US citizen wife). Life is what happens while you're making other plans.

Anyway, my experience in silicon valley was that companies did not want to hire H1B visas because of the delay associated with the visa paperwork. They wanted citizens or green card holders. The problem was that there were almost no US citizens trained as engineers. They were all in marketing or sales. In every job interview prior to obtaining my green card my H1B status elicited groans. The engineering teams I worked on were about as diverse a population as I have ever met. In a meeting of 10 engineers there could be 10 nationalities. I met very very few US citizen engineers in years of working.

So until US citizens become willing to pick lettuce in CA central valley, or get advanced engineering degrees there will be a need for immigration.

I'm not denying that some US workers have lost their jobs to immigrants, but this was not my experience during my 7 years in silicon valley.

[don]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

May 22, 2009
Op-Ed Contributor
Golden State Bailout

By JOE MATHEWS
Los Angeles

IS California too big to fail?

That’s the question President Obama and Congress will soon face. While many states have severe fiscal problems, the depth and unusual persistence of California’s budget problems — the state has run deficits for most of the decade — has emptied Sacramento’s till. On its current path, California will run short of the cash it needs to pay its bills in late July.

It’s highly unlikely that the state’s political leaders will be able to fix the problem themselves. Typically, states build up a cushion of tax revenues in the spring to pay expenses through the fall, when little cash comes in. But enormous drops in tax revenue have left California without the savings to meet even one month’s worth of expenses.

The other methods of cash management — transfers to the general budget from other state accounts and short-term borrowing in the credit markets — are no longer enough to address the problem. California’s leaders have drawn so deeply in recent years on the state’s hundreds of special funds that there is little cash left to repurpose.

And selling short-term notes in the credit markets is difficult because of California’s credit rating, the lowest of any state. Even if the state could pay high interest costs, California may require more cash — more than $20 billion by some estimates — than it can plausibly acquire in the markets.

It is true that California’s Legislature and governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, could take bold action to conserve cash. But the size of the deficit and the state’s governing system make such action next to impossible. A two-thirds vote of the Legislature is required to pass any budget or raise any tax in the state, and compromise has become a dirty word.

A legislative deal reached in February to address part of the budget problem came under such fierce attack from the left (for its spending cuts) and from the right (for its tax increases) that voters rejected five of its major components in a special election on Tuesday. The state Republicans, egged on by right-wing talk radio hosts, have started campaigns to recall two Republican lawmakers who voted for the compromise. California is not a patient that can heal itself.

What to do? Bankruptcy would appear to be out. Federal law authorizes only local governments, not states, to seek bankruptcy protection. Yet in California, irresponsible voices on the right (and a few on the left) have suggested testing the limits of the law and forcing the state to begin to delay or default on its obligations.

That would be a disaster, not only for California, but also for the country. Financial analysts fear that the failure of California’s government could further damage the state’s economy (and by extension, the nation’s) and shake confidence in the bond markets, making it difficult for cities and counties to borrow and perhaps sending some local governments into real bankruptcy.

Others in Sacramento — including the Assembly speaker, Karen Bass, and the state treasurer, Bill Lockyer — are investigating the possibility of federal assistance. This could take several forms. The Treasury could offer guarantees on any short-term bonds that California sells to raise cash. Or money from the Troubled Asset Relief Program could be used to backstop such notes. Or Washington could speed up some of the stimulus money earmarked for the state.

Each of those ideas, or a combination of the three, offers hope. However, as a condition of any assistance, the federal government should charge the state a fee that includes penalties if it fails to make major changes in its budgeting process. At a minimum, California should be required to submit for federal approval a multiyear plan to meet its obligations and to eliminate its structural deficit. Washington might also require the establishment of a board to oversee state finances. (Federal loan guarantees to New York City in the 1970s provide one model.)

There would be fierce resistance to federal aid. Other states may wonder why California deserves special attention — it’s a fair point, and it might be wise for the government to offer similar guarantees to other states in distress. California officials might worry about the loss of sovereignty. And Democrats in the administration and Congress, many of them Californians, may be tempted to help a Democratic state without conditions.

But they shouldn’t. By attaching strings to any aid, the federal government would give the state its best chance at saving itself.

Most important, President Obama should press California’s elected officials and its voters — 61 percent of whom supported him last November — to make constitutional changes. Among these would be the elimination of the gridlock-creating two-thirds vote for budgets and tax increases, and new curbs on ballot initiatives that mandate spending for popular programs without identifying new tax dollars to pay for them.

Federal officials may resist intervening at first, out of misplaced caution. But the combination of the state’s size and its dysfunction means that Washington will probably have to intervene sooner or later. There can be no American recovery if California collapses.

Joe Mathews is a senior fellow at the New America Foundation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/22/op...22mathews.html



If this is the field, I'd put my money on "The Treasury could offer guarantees on any short-term bonds that California sells to raise cash" horsey. I think a version of this nag has already run.

[Raz]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

There may be too many people, but it's not clear to me that american born citizens are qualified for what jobs there are.

I'm an immigrant, I came here on a whim on an L1 visa ... a chance to visit another country. I had no intention of staying longer than a year or two, but then I met my (US citizen wife). Life is what happens while you're making other plans.

Anyway, my experience in silicon valley was that companies did not want to hire H1B visas because of the delay associated with the visa paperwork. They wanted citizens or green card holders. The problem was that there were almost no US citizens trained as engineers. They were all in marketing or sales. In every job interview prior to obtaining my green card my H1B status elicited groans. The engineering teams I worked on were about as diverse a population as I have ever met. In a meeting of 10 engineers there could be 10 nationalities. I met very very few US citizen engineers in years of working.

So until US citizens become willing to pick lettuce in CA central valley, or get advanced engineering degrees there will be a need for immigration.

I'm not denying that some US workers have lost their jobs to immigrants, but this was not my experience during my 7 years in silicon valley.

You're points are well taken.

I have NO problem with immigration per se. I have a BIG, BIG problem with the unarmed (for the most part) invasion of MY country by those who have no desire to become American citizens. Those who only want a paycheck, have no desire to assimilate but prefer to live in their own little "Balkan Enclave", and have no allegiance to the United States are unwelcome by me.

Some years ago I listened to Michael Savage on the radio. In my opinion he's intelligent but too obnoxious and thick-headed, so I couldn't take much of him. Nevertheless, just as a blind pig can sometimes find an acorn, Savage had one very good point:
"Borders, language, culture" - without clearly defined and defended borders, a common language, and the societal glue provided by at least shared primary cultural values - you simply don't have a nation.

[Munger]

Re: California Rejects Schwarzenegger’s Budget Measures

You're points are well taken.

I have NO problem with immigration per se. I have a BIG, BIG problem with the unarmed (for the most part) invasion of MY country by those who have no desire to become American citizens. Those who only want a paycheck, have no desire to assimilate but prefer to live in their own little "Balkan Enclave", and have no allegiance to the United States are unwelcome by me.

If there are jobs to be filled, is it not a net gain for the U.S. to have them filled? Do you believe in a free market or not?

As far as requiring immigrants to "assimilate" - firstly, this is a straw man. Secondly, this is your bias, and the constitution and laws of the U.S. have no such requirement, for good reason.