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  • Asia will author its own destruction....

    if it triggers a crisis over US bonds.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...-US-bonds.html

    I liked this part best.

    China and Japan together hold 23pc of America's $6,369bn federal debt. This has caused alarm on the US talk radio circuit, but fears of imminent "dollardämmerung" and a collapse of American economic power may prove far off the mark. Who ultimately holds a gun to the head of whom?

    If Asia's leaders give free rein to frustrations and crater the US bond market, they will ensure their own political destruction. Japan already risks descent into demographic death, deflation, and debt atrophy (its public debt is nearing 200pc of GDP). China's regime depends on perma-boom for post-Maoist legitimacy. Could it survive the wrath of jobless graduates and rural migrants if it provokes America into erecting trade barriers, killing the globalisation goose that lays the golden egg?

    American can if necessary retreat into its vast home market and rebuild its industrial base, well-armed with 12 aircraft carrier battle groups.

    The last 12 months should be lesson enough that Asia cannot yet stand on its own two feet. Its mercantilist export model remains a "high-beta" play on the West, to use trader parlance.


    Japan's industrial output has fallen 34pc. China's exports are down 23pc.
    Ray Maurer, from Qatar's QNB Capital, said China may be too busy closing factories it should never have built to challenge US primacy over coming years. "China is not going to be a juggernaut until it creates a viable economy based on home consumption. It's just a tiger, living a myth," he said.

    Lombard's Charles Dumas says the "super-savers" (China, Japan, Germany) have warped their own economies by relying on exports and, therefore, on perpetual debt build-up by the West.

    "Their currencies are due to decline against the dollar as weak US recovery throws a few scraps from its table, over which the world's exporters will have to scrabble, cutting their prices and currencies in the process. The US is not, and is not about to become, Argentina or Zimbabwe," he said.

    Let us not forget how we got here. Japan amassed a quarter trillion dollars of US bonds from January 2003 to March 2004 in a frantic effort to drive down the yen and stave off deflation. It has not yet won that battle. Producer prices fell to minus 3.8pc in April, a 22-year low.

    China's holdings of US bonds are a consequence of its own policy of holding down the yuan to boost exports. Beijing may rage about America's "helicopter" stimulus, but what would have happened to the factories of Guangdong if the Fed had not taken emergency action or if the US Treasury had allowed the banks to collapse? China wants it both ways.

    The world economy has long been running on fumes. The debt appetite of the Anglo-sphere and Club Med kept demand afloat, concealing excess capacity. The deformed interplay of Asia's Confucian model and Western consumption ran unchecked, until the imbalances blew up.

    Yet it is easier to blame Uncle Sam, subprime, and friendless bankers. A folk tale has captured political discourse everywhere, from Beijing, to Tokyo, Moscow, and Berlin. If they are foolish enough to act on this self-serving illusion, they will pay the higher price.
    Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho

  • #2
    Re: Asia will author its own destruction....

    I keep sensing a distinct flaw in this argument that China will shoot itself in the foot if it pulls out of the dollar. People seem to forget that China holds the key to the means of production of which America has lived so prosperously over the past few years. China has hundreds of millions of people still living in poverty and if they really desire to be a superpower as is claimed, then the first step will be to bring those people out of such poverty.

    So imagine the factories start laying off people and they start getting angry and taking to the streets, well then China starts using their trillions of dollars in reserves and production capacity (or by printing their own "stimulus yuan") to start giving out free cars, clothes, food, and supplies for better shelter, heaters, lights, electricity, etc. I imagine that would quell any sort of rebellion or political threat in a hurry.

    The same couldnt be said about the US. If China begins redirecting their industrial capacity inwards, that will require a major shift away from the US economy. Once the shelves start emptying out and Americans realize what's going on, we won't be able to build factories fast enough to pick up the slack and the US politicians will only hinder that process in an untold number of ways. The US is literally on the verge of disaster because we have no industrial capacity to sustain the livelihood that most Americans believe we are capable of and when that reality hits home, it will be too late to do anything about it.

    When I talk about what an economic "collapse" would be like to my friends and family, I tell them to imagine going to any grocery/supermarket store (ie Walmart, Target, etc) and find everything with "Made in China" on it. Then imagine it not being there. The look on their face when it dawns on them about how vulnerable we really are is almost priceless were the reality not so sickeningly true.
    Every interest bearing loan is mathematically impossible to pay back.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Asia will author its own destruction....

      We're vulnerable to not being able to piss away money on low-quality,
      semi-slave made junk consumption products? Woe is us!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Asia will author its own destruction....

        i believe this is called the nuclear option.

        In 1962, during the cuban missile crisis, cuba possesed tactical nukes, and there were orders to use them if cuba was invaded. This would have ended real bad for both parties.

        Huge decisions are not always made rationally. Fear, Greed, and Ego are often intertwined.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Asia will author its own destruction....

          GM is threatening to produce cars in China for US export. (To date they manufacture cars in China for the Asian market) Puts a nice spin on the GM bailout and Buy America First, doesn't it ;)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Asia will author its own destruction....

            Originally posted by Rantly McTirade View Post
            We're vulnerable to not being able to piss away money on low-quality,
            semi-slave made junk consumption products? Woe is us!
            Like I said...look around you and find things made in China. Then imagine them disappearing. You'd be quite amazed at what you'd find is actually made in China. Very few products arrive in your hands without there being some form of Chinese investment getting it there (ie manufacturing, transportation, etc).
            Every interest bearing loan is mathematically impossible to pay back.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Asia will author its own destruction....

              Originally posted by Rantly McTirade View Post
              We're vulnerable to not being able to piss away money on low-quality,
              semi-slave made junk consumption products? Woe is us!
              If you still persist in holding this misperception you aren't paying attention to what EJ and the folks at iTulip have been saying...

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Asia will author its own destruction....

                Originally posted by Master Shake View Post
                if it triggers a crisis over US bonds.

                http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...-US-bonds.html

                I liked this part best.

                China and Japan together hold 23pc of America's $6,369bn federal debt. This has caused alarm on the US talk radio circuit, but fears of imminent "dollardämmerung" and a collapse of American economic power may prove far off the mark. Who ultimately holds a gun to the head of whom?

                If Asia's leaders give free rein to frustrations and crater the US bond market, they will ensure their own political destruction. Japan already risks descent into demographic death, deflation, and debt atrophy (its public debt is nearing 200pc of GDP). China's regime depends on perma-boom for post-Maoist legitimacy. Could it survive the wrath of jobless graduates and rural migrants if it provokes America into erecting trade barriers, killing the globalisation goose that lays the golden egg?

                American can if necessary retreat into its vast home market and rebuild its industrial base, well-armed with 12 aircraft carrier battle groups.

                The last 12 months should be lesson enough that Asia cannot yet stand on its own two feet. Its mercantilist export model remains a "high-beta" play on the West, to use trader parlance.


                Japan's industrial output has fallen 34pc. China's exports are down 23pc.
                Ray Maurer, from Qatar's QNB Capital, said China may be too busy closing factories it should never have built to challenge US primacy over coming years. "China is not going to be a juggernaut until it creates a viable economy based on home consumption. It's just a tiger, living a myth," he said.

                Lombard's Charles Dumas says the "super-savers" (China, Japan, Germany) have warped their own economies by relying on exports and, therefore, on perpetual debt build-up by the West.

                "Their currencies are due to decline against the dollar as weak US recovery throws a few scraps from its table, over which the world's exporters will have to scrabble, cutting their prices and currencies in the process. The US is not, and is not about to become, Argentina or Zimbabwe," he said.

                Let us not forget how we got here. Japan amassed a quarter trillion dollars of US bonds from January 2003 to March 2004 in a frantic effort to drive down the yen and stave off deflation. It has not yet won that battle. Producer prices fell to minus 3.8pc in April, a 22-year low.

                China's holdings of US bonds are a consequence of its own policy of holding down the yuan to boost exports. Beijing may rage about America's "helicopter" stimulus, but what would have happened to the factories of Guangdong if the Fed had not taken emergency action or if the US Treasury had allowed the banks to collapse? China wants it both ways.

                The world economy has long been running on fumes. The debt appetite of the Anglo-sphere and Club Med kept demand afloat, concealing excess capacity. The deformed interplay of Asia's Confucian model and Western consumption ran unchecked, until the imbalances blew up.

                Yet it is easier to blame Uncle Sam, subprime, and friendless bankers. A folk tale has captured political discourse everywhere, from Beijing, to Tokyo, Moscow, and Berlin. If they are foolish enough to act on this self-serving illusion, they will pay the higher price.
                This sort of "analysis" is amusing, and not much more. It's based on the premise that it's China and Japan that want to crater the US$, when the reality is that the US$ will be cratered from inside...by the Treasury, the Fed and the politicians themselves. That's the real risk...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Asia will author its own destruction....

                  Originally posted by audrey_girl

                  remember - never kill a man who is in the process of committing suicide.
                  Or you can feed him to death...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Asia will author its own destruction....

                    Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                    This sort of "analysis" is amusing, and not much more. It's based on the premise that it's China and Japan that want to crater the US$, when the reality is that the US$ will be cratered from inside...by the Treasury, the Fed and the politicians themselves. That's the real risk...
                    Yes, agreed. Someone here on iTulip pointed to this excellent description of why the "reserves" being held by China and Japan are not what they seem:

                    http://mpettis.com/2009/04/is-govern...-bernanke-ite/

                    I highly recommend reading the whole thing, as well as the comments.

                    Krugman also commented on this idea, after spending the last week or two in China talking to their officials:

                    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/200...iquidity-trap/

                    One of the things I tried to tell the Chinese was precisely that the old co-dependence no longer exists. For now, at least, their dollar purchases are an unalloyed bad thing from America’s point of view.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Asia will author its own destruction....

                      Originally posted by allenjs View Post
                      Krugman also commented on this idea, after spending the last week or two in China talking to their officials:

                      http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/200...iquidity-trap/
                      Krugman:
                      But what if China doesn’t spend more, but just reallocates its reserves from dollars to, say, euros? The answer is, that’s also good for us: a weaker dollar will help our exports, at Europe’s expense.
                      This is important to note because Krugman draws a large audience of loyal and generally politically liberal readers. Has he talked a weak dollar being good for us before? I wonder if this was discussed at the closed-door meeting with Obama last week.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Asia will author its own destruction....

                        The weaker dollar-stronger exports argument is a loser's game. True enough, if you sell all the furniture in your house, your house will be lighter. But where will you sit?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Asia will author its own destruction....

                          Both China and the US need to re-orient their economies, towards more consumption and more saving respectively. It will take time and be painful in both cases. Who is more likely to achieve quickly and without convulsions?

                          My bet would be on the US - historically it has a more flexible economy, and a more democratic and transparent government (relatively speaking). A well defined non-violent succession process that can produce relatively large shifts in government policy will be a significant advantage in years to come

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Asia will author its own destruction....

                            Originally posted by don View Post
                            GM is threatening to produce cars in China for US export. (To date they manufacture cars in China for the Asian market) Puts a nice spin on the GM bailout and Buy America First, doesn't it ;)

                            Is there any chance those cars will make it out of the port as other than a pile of crushed junk-as opposed to a single unit of junk.
                            A story in yesterday's NYT mentioned something along these lines and also noted that the Obozo administration had given such plans "a green light". Will this be the item that makes all the nitwits who got starry-eyed
                            over 'Hope!' and 'Change!' realize there's NOT a 'dime's worth of difference'
                            and that they're being metaphorically butt-pounded-sans condom-like Bush/Rove did to cultural conservatives(expel nice-sounding rhetoric and
                            actually do absolutely nothing).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Asia will author its own destruction....

                              Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                              If you still persist in holding this misperception you aren't paying attention to what EJ and the folks at iTulip have been saying...

                              If it's along the lines of how we're so dependant on China producing the mostly unnecessary geegaws and trinkets of the consumption economy, well that's more reason to shut down more than minimal consumption.
                              I'll be happy to put up with 20%+ US unemployment, if it also provides 40%+ unemployment in China-and they're slaughtering each other in the streets & destroying the 'malinvestment' that exploded there in the past half-dozen years. As a side project perhaps with the extra time on our hands, we can point out those who outsourced our manufacturing base over the past quarter-century and have some good ol' fashion show trials(Pecora, at least, if not the full Stalin), or even a little hands on retribution-somebody's gotta get strung up and it looks like the FIRE
                              whores are gonna skate(yes, there is overlap).

                              Comment

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