Vastly Worse than the 1930's Taleb says

[ggirod]

Re: Vastly Worse than the 1930's Taleb says

From MarkL:

Those American's that are "debt slaves" today are so due to their own lack of control, ignorance and failure to inform themselves. These people are exemplified by excessive credit card debt when anybody who can read knows that rates can adjust at the whim of the lendor, buying into a housing market bubble with an adjustable rate mortage when they can't afford it, and a failure in general to consider risk.

To those who choose to blame the least powerful among us, I suggest they spend an hour watching the The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class which is probably the Elizabeth Warren video to watch if you are only going to watch one. Watching more is highly recommended.

I really get tired of hearing how those down on their economic luck through illness, etc. get blamed for their plight while those up on their luck get to bask in the righteous glow of moral superiority. If you really believe that those who are successful are simply of better stock than those who are not, forget about the Black Swan and read Taleb's earlier book, Fooled by Randomness.

It is hoped that the combined effect of a few Elizabeth Warren videos and some vintage Taleb might be a flourishing of humility and understanding and respect for one's fellow man.

[leegs]

Re: Vastly Worse than the 1930's Taleb says

The freedom to choose is never at stake. Freedom is not a thing given it is taken. Look inside and choose your best definition of freedom. For Sharky it was moving his family to NZ. For me it was moving out of LA to a small town in the US and using my influence locally to drive small changes. When you reference the Holocaust to mitigate your own struggles it doesn't serve you well. Define your own version of freedom and take it. Governments can only deeply affect the dependant. I've never sensed dependancy in any of your posts. Just make a decision about how to define your own freedom, influence your family and associates to make the same decision and demonstate your conviction. The rest is outside your influence. I don't know if I'm correct but I live this way and it's worked well for us.

That was really well put Santafe. I sympathize with JTs point of view, but as I read his posts I had a similar reaction as you - it's not necessary to leave the country to largely escape the negative influences to which he refers. I am not arguing that leaving, as Sharky has done, is a bad thing at all, just that it isn't necessary IMO.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Vastly Worse than the 1930's Taleb says

From MarkL:
To those who choose to blame the least powerful among us, I suggest they spend an hour watching the The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class which is probably the Elizabeth Warren video to watch if you are only going to watch one. Watching more is highly recommended.

I really get tired of hearing how those down on their economic luck through illness, etc. get blamed for their plight while those up on their luck get to bask in the righteous glow of moral superiority. If you really believe that those who are successful are simply of better stock than those who are not, forget about the Black Swan and read Taleb's earlier book, Fooled by Randomness.

It is hoped that the combined effect of a few Elizabeth Warren videos and some vintage Taleb might be a flourishing of humility and understanding and respect for one's fellow man.

The eco-frauds are one bunch that have destroyed the land, and the other bunch, especially in the U.S. is the Christian-right. The latter were the George Bush worshippers, the one's who listened to FOX News, Glenn Beck, Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly for their information.

When I think of the damage the Christian-right has done to the schools thru their phonics crap and English-only, the damage to the economy thru their hands-off policy toward the banks ( thanks to their Alan Greenspan at the Fed ) and the damage to the economy thanks to their "grow our way out of any deficit" attitude which came from their Arthur Laffer and his supply-side economics (the cornerstone of Reaganomics), my hair stands-up. And then, they don't see themselves as to blame--- if that isn't the shocker ! One failure upon another in policy, and they see themselves as so innocent.

Catholic conservatives, part of the Christian-right, are objecting (right now) to Notre Dame University having invited President Obama to speak on campus---- because of some connexion they make between their abortion issue and the President, or some connexion they make between Obama and stem cells. Here are people ( right now ) who have no problem with leaving 47million people without access to healthcare in America, but they are using this Sunday to protest on my computer some connexion they make between the President and their abortion or stem cell issues.

A crash now worse than 1929, and we still have these righteous idiots trying to control healthcare policy and energy policy, even education policy.... Unbelieveable!

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Vastly Worse than the 1930's Taleb says

The eco-frauds are one bunch that have destroyed the land, and the other bunch, especially in the U.S. is the Christian-right.

I disagree with your post, Mr. Steve. However I do not find a sufficient basis for fruitful discussion in your comments to justify the effort to explain why.

[allenjs]

Re: Vastly Worse than the 1930's Taleb says

When I think of the damage the Christian-right has done ... my hair stands-up. And then, they don't see themselves as to blame--- if that isn't the shocker ! One failure upon another in policy, and they see themselves as so innocent.

Catholic conservatives, part of the Christian-right, are objecting (right now) to Notre Dame University having invited President Obama to speak on campus---- because of some connexion they make between their abortion issue and the President, or some connexion they make between Obama and stem cells. Here are people ( right now ) who have no problem with leaving 47million people without access to healthcare in America

Yes, clearly this is all a plot by Christians. Not only did they create the economic collapse, they built arks (so to speak) for themselves such that they were protected while their Godless neighbors perished:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ing-bubble/?hp

On the other hand, can you provide any citations to back up your claim that Catholics "have no problem with leaving 47million people without access to healthcare in America"? That's a very dramatic and extraordinary claim. It is opposite to every exit poll I've ever seen, and contradicts every public statement on the matter I've ever seen from senior Catholic leadership. Healthcare is a primary issue for Catholics, and has been for a long time -- not even "Angels and Demons" claims otherwise.

Additionally, one wonders how rigorous your evidence for Catholic support of "free market fundamentalism" is? In 1985, the current pope predicted the collapse of the western economic system, calling this free market fundamentalism "immoral".

http://www.acton.org/publications/oc...php?view=print

It is becoming an increasingly obvious fact of economic history that the development of economic systems which concentrate on the common good depends on a determinate ethical system, which in turn can be born and sustained only by strong religious convictions. Conversely, it has also become obvious that the decline of such discipline can actually cause the laws of the market to collapse

In his 1985 communication, he got even more explicit:

Following the tradition inaugurated by Adam Smith, this position holds that the market is incompatible with ethics because voluntary "moral" actions contradict market rules and drive the moralizing entrepreneur out of the game. For a long time, then, business ethics rang like hollow metal because the economy was held to work on efficiency and not on morality. The market's inner logic should free us precisely from the necessity of having to depend on the morality of its participants. The true play of market laws best guarantees progress and even distributive justice.

This determinism, in which man is completely controlled by the binding laws of the market while believing he acts in freedom from them, includes yet another and perhaps even more astounding presupposition, namely, that the natural laws of the market are in essence good (if I may be permitted so to speak) and necessarily work for the good, whatever may be true of the morality of individuals.

This is not exactly a ringing endorsement of an unfettered invisible hand.

The Pope's views have not changed since 1985, either. As recently as two months ago, he called for Christians to "denounce" the global economic system:

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/...m?storyid=2130

“We must denounce” the global economic system, he said, “with courage, but also with concreteness because moralizing will not help if it is not supported by an understanding of reality, which also will help us understand what can be done concretely to change the situation.”

Pope Benedict said that greed is the basis of the economic crisis and added, "Justice cannot be created only with economic reforms, which are necessary, but it also requires the presence of just people."

On the other hand, you *should* be afraid of Christians. They want nothing more than to steal everyone's porn and outlaw such civil liberties as gay marriage which have been enjoyed by humanity for countless millennia. Already, we are suffocating under their increasingly intolerable oppression. We have vastly less access to porn than our grandfathers did. Any fool can see how far our civil liberties have been eroding!

[Starving Steve]

Re: Vastly Worse than the 1930's Taleb says

Would you care to contact "The Bob Livingston Letter" at www.boblivingstonletter.com ? The letter this weekend would explain the feelings of Catholic conservatives against Notre Dame University having invited the President to speak on the issues of the day.

Apparently, the welfare of fetuses and stem cells count for as much or more than the welfare of forty-seven million Americans who have no access to healthcare. Why else would Catholic-conservatives object so strongly to Notre Dame's invitation to let the President speak? To me, this all seems so strange and downright telling.

And then we have the Islamo-fascists who have just finished hanging a woman in Tehran ( I think it was Friday) for a crime she commited when she was 17, and their sympathetic press here in the Western World, including the BBC World Television, had little to comment on about the event.... a couple of short sentences, and that was all on BBC.

And then we had the Republicans and George Bush who made an unholy alliance with the religious-right, especially in the South, and they used this alliance as a source of political power to control America and destroy the country. FOX News helped them to broadcast to "the folks in the Heartland", as they put it..... You do remember Bill O'Reilly, don't you? Didn't Bill O'Reilly graduate from Notre Dame? But at least his college, Notre Dame, had the tolerance and goodwill to invite the President of the United States to speak on the issues of the day.

[allenjs]

Re: Vastly Worse than the 1930's Taleb says

Would you care to contact "The Bob Livingston Letter" at www.boblivingstonletter.com ? The letter this weekend would explain the feelings of Catholic conservatives against Notre Dame University having invited the President to speak on the issues of the day.

Apparently, the welfare of fetuses and stem cells count for as much or more than the welfare of forty-seven million Americans who have no access to healthcare. Why else would Catholic-conservatives object so strongly to Notre Dame's invitation to let the President speak? To me, this all seems so strange and downright telling.

Thanks for the link. Do you have any additional context? I read the entire web page you sent, and there is nothing about Catholics or Obama there. In fact, the guy seems to be bashing Bush.

In any case, it should be no surprise that Catholics are pro-life. If you want to slam them for being pro-life, by all means bash them. But it's a rather startling non-sequitur to claim that they are anti-healthcare, or pro laissez-faire, simply by being pro-life. Both claims are patently false. It's not as if Catholics are on anti-healthcare letter writing campaigns. What am I missing? Are you suggesting that millions of people will go without healthcare if the Catholics don't allow a pro-abortion politician to speak at a Catholic university? The very idea defies credulity.

I cannot speak on behalf of Catholics, but they would probably say that pro-healthcare and pro-life are aspects of the same impulse. The Catholics invented the Hospital, and still provide free healthcare to more of the world's poor than any other non-government entity on earth. There isn't any other organization on the planet that has a longer or more credible commitment to accessible health care for the poor. And I've already explained why it's completely wrong to lump in the Catholics in with laissez-faire.

I don't really care to argue about whether the Catholics are right in what they believe. But intellectual integrity demands that we be honest and not *misrepresent* what they believe. Even if we disagree with them, we need to be honest about what their position is. And it's spectacularly false to say that they believe in restricting healthcare, or leaving markets unregulated.

And then we had the Republicans and George Bush who made an unholy alliance with the religious-right, especially in the South, and they used this alliance as a source of political power to control America and destroy the country. FOX News helped them to broadcast to "the folks in the Heartland", as they put it..... You do remember Bill O'Reilly, don't you? Didn't Bill O'Reilly graduate from Notre Dame? But at least his college, Notre Dame, had the tolerance and goodwill to invite the President of the United States to speak on the issues of the day.

OK, you are correct that Bush used his religious conversion for political profit. Check out this fantastic series in Slate by Jacob Weisberg, "The Doubtful Faith of George Bush" from "The Bush Tragedy":

http://www.slate.com/id/2186343/entry/2186344/

It's very illuminating. George W. Bush seemed to worship Liberty instead of God, and was eager to spread his Cult of Liberty by bombs and bloodshed if necessary. The Catholics did not hesitate to point out the un-Christian hypocrisy of Bush's "Cult of Liberty".

Anyway, Bill O'Reilly supported John Kerry, who is a Catholic. And Barack Obama has been a Christian for far longer than George W. Bush was when he took the presidency. So I suppose that any mistakes that Obama makes can be blamed on "those Christians". And any mistakes that the senate leaders like Pelosi and Kerry make can also be blamed on Christians. What a convenient scapegoat! (And, don't forget to buy a safe to store your porn before they come after *yours*!)

[Starving Steve]

Re: Vastly Worse than the 1930's Taleb says

Thanks for the link. Do you have any additional context? I read the entire web page you sent, and there is nothing about Catholics or Obama there. In fact, the guy seems to be bashing Bush.

In any case, it should be no surprise that Catholics are pro-life. If you want to slam them for being pro-life, by all means bash them. But it's a rather startling non-sequitur to claim that they are anti-healthcare, or pro laissez-faire, simply by being pro-life. Both claims are patently false. It's not as if Catholics are on anti-healthcare letter writing campaigns. What am I missing? Are you suggesting that millions of people will go without healthcare if the Catholics don't allow a pro-abortion politician to speak at a Catholic university? The very idea defies credulity.

I cannot speak on behalf of Catholics, but they would probably say that pro-healthcare and pro-life are aspects of the same impulse. The Catholics invented the Hospital, and still provide free healthcare to more of the world's poor than any other non-government entity on earth. There isn't any other organization on the planet that has a longer or more credible commitment to accessible health care for the poor. And I've already explained why it's completely wrong to lump in the Catholics in with laissez-faire.

I don't really care to argue about whether the Catholics are right in what they believe. But intellectual integrity demands that we be honest and not *misrepresent* what they believe. Even if we disagree with them, we need to be honest about what their position is. And it's spectacularly false to say that they believe in restricting healthcare, or leaving markets unregulated.



OK, you are correct that Bush used his religious conversion for political profit. Check out this fantastic series in Slate by Jacob Weisberg, "The Doubtful Faith of George Bush" from "The Bush Tragedy":

http://www.slate.com/id/2186343/entry/2186344/

It's very illuminating. George W. Bush seemed to worship Liberty instead of God, and was eager to spread his Cult of Liberty by bombs and bloodshed if necessary. The Catholics did not hesitate to point out the un-Christian hypocrisy of Bush's "Cult of Liberty".

Anyway, Bill O'Reilly supported John Kerry, who is a Catholic. And Barack Obama has been a Christian for far longer than George W. Bush was when he took the presidency. So I suppose that any mistakes that Obama makes can be blamed on "those Christians". And any mistakes that the senate leaders like Pelosi and Kerry make can also be blamed on Christians. What a convenient scapegoat! (And, don't forget to buy a safe to store your porn before they come after *yours*!)

I have no great problem with the views and teachings of the Catholic Church. But I do object to Catholic conservatives pressuring Notre Dame University to not allow the President of the U.S. to speak. I think that was way "off the wall" or "out of the ballpark".

Now, as for the Bill Livingston Letter, you can get a free subscription using the link that I posted, www.boblivingstonletter.com . Just ask Bill Livingston or his staff for the recent letters over this past weekend. Inside those letters, you will find commentary about the opposition of Catholic conservatives to letting Obama speak at Notre Dame.

Yes, a pro-life position is also pro-national healthcare. The two positions are consistent. So why would some Catholics still pressure Notre Dame University about letting the President speak?

As for the Livingston Letter, I think you will enjoy it although it keeps coming and coming --- with more and more comments on vitamins, health, and politics. The views in the letter are Catholic which I think you would agree with. Unfortunately, the politics in the Livingston Letter are usually rightwing or conservative; you might agree with the politics expressed in the letter, but I have a hard time with some of the viewpoints expressed.

Anyway, I read the Livingston Letter to try to understand its views. My own views are pagan. I worship the forest or the gods that run the forest and the Earth.... When you live under two-hundred and three-hundred foot tall cedar tress, you naturally begin to see spirits in those trees. I don't know how the Earth came to be, but I certainly am fascinated in it.

As for the Pope's ongoing visit to the Middle East, we are all praying for its success. Humanity needs a Middle East peace.

[charliebrown]

Re: Vastly Worse than the 1930's Taleb says

Steve,

I know the health care system is broken, and I dont know how to fix it. Right know, many people dont have access to health care because they cant afford it. A rash power grab by the govenment will probably result in a lot of people getting access to simple health care that they cant afford, but I fear that those of us who are really ill, will get poor access to care, either unacceptably delayed or denied.

I think what really needs to be done is to peel this health care onion apart one layer at a time and try to organize it, to plan it, change the laws etc. We have to get the trial lawyers out of the system. We have to make it easier for smart people to become doctors. We have to make it fun again to be a doctor. I hear lots of doctors complaining that the joy has been sucked out of the profession. As Al Gore said why does it cost $20.00 for medicine for my dog, but $200 for the same medicine for my son? Why does a person paying cash for service pay more than someone with insurance? Why aren't providers held accountable for medical quotes?

Regarding abortion, at what point does life begin? Birth? What about a pre-me baby? Doesn't the gvt have an obligation to protect the innocent? I am not Catholic but I believe the argument is that since taking a human life is murder, and we don't really know at what point life begins along the conception to birth spectrum then we should error on the side of caution and say that life begins at conception.

Our country was founded on Christian principles of the rights of the individual are unalienable because they come from God and not a king (man)
If the conservative movement is responsible for war mongering, hatred of unwed mothers, race discrimination etc. then tisk tisk. But I think the brush you are using to paint them is too broad and too dark.

[charliebrown]

Re: Vastly Worse than the 1930's Taleb says

this may be true, but remember everytime the gvt spends a dollar you're on the hook. You may not have dug yourself into a hole, but the gvt, is dooing a darn good job digging for you.

[allenjs]

Re: Vastly Worse than the 1930's Taleb says

My own views are pagan. I worship the forest or the gods that run the forest and the Earth.... When you live under two-hundred and three-hundred foot tall cedar tress, you naturally begin to see spirits in those trees. I don't know how the Earth came to be, but I certainly am fascinated in it.

Same here, many of my most vivid childhood memories are of the indescribable beauty in nature, and trying to understand the patterns. Goethe has written extensively on this impulse, and seemed to be half pagan. Incidentally, his work on plant metamorphosis still stands as a solid scientific contribution. If humans lose our ability to see spirits in nature, and images in clouds, we are lost.

In my opinion, pagans are a lot closer to the truth than most. Both pagans and Sufis have the right impulses. Slightly less so for shamanistic and totemic religions. Sophists and idolators are the worst.