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  • #61
    Re: From Sanders to Trump - What a Long Strange Trip it'll Be

    some interesting descriptions of the 2 political parties, taken from a book review dated tomorrow in the ny times.

    Echoing the historian Lily Geismer, Frank argues that the Democratic Party — once “the Party of the People” — now caters to the interests of a “professional-managerial class” consisting of lawyers, doctors, professors, scientists, programmers, even investment bankers. These affluent city dwellers and suburbanites believe firmly in meritocracy and individual opportunity, but shun the kind of social policies that once gave a real leg up to the working class. In the book, Frank points to the Democrats’ neglect of organized labor and support for Nafta as examples of this sensibility, in which “you get what you deserve, and what you deserve is defined by how you did in school.” In more recent columns, he has linked this neglect to the rise of a figure like Sanders, who says forthrightly what the party leadership might prefer to obscure: Current approaches aren’t working — and unless something dramatic happens, Americans are heading for a society in which a tiny elite controls most of the wealth, *resources and decision-making power.

    The problem, in Frank’s view, is not simply that mainstream Democrats have failed to address growing inequality. Instead, he suggests something more sinister: Today’s leading Democrats actually don’t want to reduce inequality because they believe that inequality is the normal and righteous order of things. As proof, he points to the famously impolitic Larry Summers, whose background as a former president of Harvard, former Treasury secretary and former chief economist of the World Bank embodies all that Frank abhors about modern Democrats. “One of the reasons that inequality has probably gone up in our society is that people are being treated closer to the way that they’re supposed to be treated,” Summers commented early in the Obama administration.

    “Remember, as you let that last sentence slide slowly down your throat, that this was a Democrat saying this,” Frank writes. From this mind-set stems everything that the Democrats have done to betray the masses, from Bill Clinton’s crime bill and welfare reform policies to Obama’s failure to rein in Wall Street, according to Frank. No surprise, under the circumstances, that the working class might look elsewhere for satisfying political options.
    and

    Fraser agrees with Frank that the Democratic Party can no longer reasonably claim to be the party of the working class or the “little man.” Instead, he argues, the Republican and Democratic parties now represent two different elite constituencies, each with its own culture and interests and modes of thought. Fraser describes today’s Republicans as the party of “family capitalism,” encompassing everyone from the mom-and-pop business owner on up to “entrepreneurial maestros” such as the Koch brothers, Linda McMahon and Donald Trump. The Democrats, by contrast, represent the managerial world spawned by modernity, including the big universities and government bureaucracies as well as “techno frontiersmen” like Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates. These are two different ways of relating to the world — one cosmopolitan and interconnected, the other patriarchal and hierarchical. Neither one, however, offers much to working-class voters.

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    • #62
      Re: From Sanders to Trump - What a Long Strange Trip it'll Be

      “Remember, as you let that last sentence slide slowly down your throat, that this was a Democrat saying this,” Frank writes. From this mind-set stems everything that the Democrats have done to betray the masses, from Bill Clinton’s crime bill and welfare reform policies to Obama’s failure to rein in Wall Street, according to Frank. No surprise, under the circumstances, that the working class might look elsewhere for satisfying political options.
      ..........
      Fraser agrees with Frank that the Democratic Party can no longer reasonably claim to be the party of the working class or the “little man.” Instead, he argues, the Republican and Democratic parties now represent two different elite constituencies, each with its own culture and interests and modes of thought. Fraser describes today’s Republicans as the party of “family capitalism,” encompassing everyone from the mom-and-pop business owner on up to “entrepreneurial maestros” such as the Koch brothers, Linda McMahon and Donald Trump. The Democrats, by contrast, represent the managerial world spawned by modernity, including the big universities and government bureaucracies as well as “techno frontiersmen” like Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates. These are two different ways of relating to the world — one cosmopolitan and interconnected, the other patriarchal and hierarchical. Neither one, however, offers much to working-class voters.

      +1


      and i still maintain that its been the demorats that are THE BIGGEST TRAITORS to the middle/working classes.

      look, its been known for-evah that the repubs represent business interests - but, thanks to the LAMESTREAM MEDIA - a certain % of the electorate has been led to vote for whomever talks the most about the latest knee-jerk activist cause du jour du celebre
      (take yer pick: the right to choose, the right of 'marriage', gun 'control', 'free education', 'save the whales, to climate 'change', to .gov-paid gender-change for inmates, fer chrisakes - and/or its 'for the children' or whatever 'victim' industrial-complex seems to get the most media attention this week!)

      with team demorats, such as hitlery - twisting their heads 360deg around on their shoulders (ala linda blair in the exorcist) depending on where/who they're talking to - and giving away the treasury to buy the votes of another 1% sliver of the electorate (such as obozo has offered just recently, for the 400thousand debt serfs with useless degrees, that THEIR POLICIES and politix have created)

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      • #63
        Re: From Sanders to Trump - What a Long Strange Trip it'll Be

        Originally posted by Woodsman View Post
        Call me racist douchebag come the Democratic convention, then. I'll have to hold my nose and check my shoes periodically, like I imagine many Clinton supporters do. Anyway, haven't you noticed? It's hip to switch!

        If these neocon GOP douchebags can switch to Clinton after decades of crapping on her, I can jump on the Trump crazy train with no problem. It's just a ride.
        I find it interesting that this election is making such strange bedfellows as you and lek. You both obviously despise her. I like Bernie but I won't have any problem voting for HRC. You should check your +1s before you get too excited about your position and jump on the Trump crazy train, it's the KKK with an MSM microphone. I don't think you should compare yourself to GOP douchebags.

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        • #64
          Re: From Sanders to Trump - What a Long Strange Trip it'll Be

          Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
          I find it interesting that this election is making such strange bedfellows as you and lek. You both obviously despise her. I like Bernie but I won't have any problem voting for HRC. You should check your +1s before you get too excited about your position and jump on the Trump crazy train, it's the KKK with an MSM microphone. I don't think you should compare yourself to GOP douchebags.
          Lek and I are far from the strangest political bedfellows of this election, although housekeeping hasn't yet even made it in for the turnover service, so don't throw us in bed together just yet.

          That said, I think our major malfunction - if you don't mind me putting words in your mouth, Lektrode - is that we're too damn old and have seen too damn much of HillBill and the GOP to make the fine-combed parsing the good young people seem to do so effortlessly. I'm not at all sure I'd characterize it as excitement, although it might account for the persistent feeling of nausea.

          I've watched every god-awful metric of social and political decline under Democratic administrations led by so called-liberals like the Clintons and under "mainstream" Republicans like the Bush dynasty. I've seen KKK with an MSM microphone for the last 30+ years, some years fast and brutal with no reach around, some years gentle and generous, but the direction and trajectory has not changed since at least the Carter administration. And nothing will do a better job of reducing racial tensions and bringing people together in common cause than the wide and deep economic recovery we will experience once we implement TECI, rebuild the physical infrastructure, and all those other things necessary to pull us out of this deflationary spiral. Only Sanders and Trump are talking about it.

          If one has any feeling for the poor and weak and excluded, can you imagine how many of those people - fellow citizens, immigrants and natural born - will die in Hillary's World War III? For chrissakes, they're openly talking about putting Kagan in her administration. Again, it's only Trump and Sanders who are speaking the unspeakable - normal relations with Russia, a neocon housecleaning (with trials on the horizon, one hopes), and an end to endless war.

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          • #65
            Re: From Sanders to Trump - What a Long Strange Trip it'll Be

            Originally posted by Woodsman View Post
            I've seen KKK with an MSM microphone for the last 30+ years, some years fast and brutal with no reach around, some years gentle and generous, but the direction and trajectory has not changed since at least the Carter administration. .
            i think you have to go back at least as far as nixon, whose southern strategy switched the south from dixiecrat to republican. of course that was in great part a reaction to lbj's civil rights act, the administration prior to nixon's. i am drawn to your position woodsman, but i have trouble with the company trumps keeps, or at least fails to renounce - the racists and haters- and i also think about the supreme court. still, i think you are right - a president trump could get a republican legislature to pass a "make america great again infrastructure act." i don't think hrc could pass anything like it.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: From Sanders to Trump - What a Long Strange Trip it'll Be

              Originally posted by jk View Post
              i think you have to go back at least as far as nixon, whose southern strategy switched the south from dixiecrat to republican. of course that was in great part a reaction to lbj's civil rights act, the administration prior to nixon's. i am drawn to your position woodsman, but i have trouble with the company trumps keeps, or at least fails to renounce - the racists and haters- and i also think about the supreme court. still, i think you are right - a president trump could get a republican legislature to pass a "make america great again infrastructure act." i don't think hrc could pass anything like it.
              Agree re timeline. Coffee was still brewing.

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              • #67
                Re: From Sanders to Trump - What a Long Strange Trip it'll Be

                Originally posted by jk View Post
                i am drawn to your position woodsman, but i have trouble with the company trumps keeps, or at least fails to renounce - the racists and haters- and i also think about the supreme court. still, i think you are right - a president trump could get a republican legislature to pass a "make america great again infrastructure act." i don't think hrc could pass anything like it.
                I don't understand this fixation with Trump and the implication that he somehow supports the Ku Klux Klan just because he does not denounce them and say that he does not want their votes. I think Trump is aware that this is going to be a very close election and it would be foolish to tell a certain bloc of people--who, if you believe the so-called liberals, comprise a substantial proportion of the South--that you don't want their votes.

                As we all know, Romney privately stated that he did not need the votes of the 47% of the population that does not pay taxes and that statement was subsequently leaked. I'm sure Romney deeply regretted alienating those people in the end because, in my opinion, Obama in 2012 was highly beatable. All Romney had to do was position himself as a candidate with good management/governance experience and attack Obama's failure to prosecute the criminals responsible for the AFC although, who knows, maybe Romney wanted to keep Wall Street out of prison, too. Had he not said that stupid thing, Romney may have still lost but I don't think it would have been the wipeout that actually occurred.

                Hillary Clinton is clearing pandering to minorities with false promises and seems to have a lot of their support. If Clinton does become the Democratic nominee for president and Trump the Republican nominee, it's fair to assume that a lot of women will vote for Clinton out of misguided identity politics. Whatever percentage of the population is racist and/or a member of the KKK will probably not vote for Clinton. If Trump were to tell that group of people that he doesn't want their votes, they'll stay home and not vote at all.

                Can Trump take such a risk? Is it wise to take such a risk? My opinion is of course "No" and I suspect this is Trump's thinking, too.

                That said, if Bernie Sanders loses to Hillary Clinton, it might make for an interesting election if Trump selected Sanders as his vice president candidate. A non-establishment ticket of Trump-Sanders against the increasingly blatantly corrupt political machine.

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                • #68
                  Re: From Sanders to Trump - What a Long Strange Trip it'll Be

                  Originally posted by jk View Post
                  i think you have to go back at least as far as nixon, whose southern strategy switched the south from dixiecrat to republican. of course that was in great part a reaction to lbj's civil rights act, the administration prior to nixon's. i am drawn to your position woodsman, but i have trouble with the company trumps keeps, or at least fails to renounce - the racists and haters- and i also think about the supreme court. still, i think you are right - a president trump could get a republican legislature to pass a "make America great again infrastructure act." i don't think hrc could pass anything like it.
                  I would suggest that The Donald is as crazy Jack D. Ripper. The last non fictional character to suggest using nukes lost any chance of reaching the presidency after he offered a shortcut for ending the Vietnam war.

                  Senator Barry Goldwater (R-Arizona), running for the Republican Party nomination in the upcoming presidential election, gives an interview in which he discusses the use of low-yield atomic bombs in North Vietnam to defoliate forests and destroy bridges, roads, and railroad lines bringing supplies from communist China. During the storm of criticism that followed, Goldwater tried to back away from these drastic actions, claiming that he did not mean to advocate the use of atomic bombs but was “repeating a suggestion made by competent military people.” Democrats painted Goldwater as a warmonger who was overly eager to use nuclear weapons in Vietnam. Though he won his party’s nomination, Goldwater was never able to shake his image as an extremist in Vietnam policies. This image was a key factor in his crushing defeat by opponent Lyndon B. Johnson, who took about 61 percent of the vote to Goldwater’s 39 percent.
                  The Donald can't shut-up about it.

                  Donald Trump refused to rule out using nuclear weapons in Europe during a town hall in Wisconsin on Wednesday.

                  "Look, nuclear should be off the table, but would there a time when it could be used? Possibly," Trump said.
                  Here's another fan. A real charmer with both math and anger issues who's Native American name is Throws-chairs-at-kids

                  At a Trump rally in Indiana on Thursday, Knight raised some eyebrows when he compared the two men. "Harry Truman, with what he did in dropping and having the guts to drop the bomb in 1944 saved, saved billions of American lives," Knight said, with Trump smiling next to him. "And that's what Harry Truman did. And he became one of the three great presidents of the United States. And here's a man who would do the same thing, because he's going to become one of the four great presidents of the United States."
                  And articulating his deep understanding of the nuclear issue...

                  "I think for me, nuclear is just the power, the devastation is very important to me".
                  And talking about the Middle East...

                  “I will be the last to use it. I will not be a happy trigger like some people might be. I will be the last,” he said. “But I will never, ever rule it out.”
                  And proliferation...really? The Saudis?

                  This past week, President Barack Obama joined a group of major world leaders in Washington, D.C., for a Nuclear Security Summit. At the same time, Donald Trump said he has no objections to nuclear proliferation around the world.

                  “At some point we have to say, you know what, we’re better off if Japan protects itself against this maniac in North Korea,” Trump told Anderson Cooper at a CNN town hall on Tuesday. “We’re better off, frankly, if South Korea is going to start to protect itself.” As for Saudi Arabia getting a nuclear weapon? “Absolutely.”
                  It's awful that Trump is a racist blowhard but only the utterly uninformed and voters with a death wish will vote for him.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: From Sanders to Trump - What a Long Strange Trip it'll Be

                    Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
                    ...
                    ...
                    ..
                    It's awful that Trump is a racist blowhard but only the utterly uninformed and voters with a death wish will vote for him.
                    and only the utterly uninformed - or yet, better to say - only those utterly in denial about the facts of the 1990's - from nafta to the repeal of glass-steagall, to the policy + strategic FAILURES during the first 2 clinton terms - that directly led to osama's rise and the fall of the world trade center, the murdering of 3000+ Americans - to the elections of 2008&12 - with the resultant criminal takeover of the .gov by those who bankrolled both the clinton's rise to power, along with obozo and holder - who thru either sheer incompetence or flatout criminal intent - allowed the perps of the biggest economic wipeout in US History to ride off into the sunset with TRILLIONS IN PRINTED MONEY - while crowing about the BRIBES, or the so-called 'settlements' that were extracted vs NO JAIL TIME for the voluminously documented criminal activities that has been IGNORED by their enablers within the LAMERSTREAM MEDIA - to their relocation to NY state, carpetbagging her way into the senate - essentially a QUID PRO QUO reward for their giving the lwr manhattan mob the keys to the US Treasury - to hitlery's self-aggrandizing FAILURES while sec of state - would even think of voting for round 2 of the clinton DISASTER

                    only the utterly self-deluded could rationalize her as being somehow 'better than trump'

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                    • #70
                      Re: From Sanders to Trump - What a Long Strange Trip it'll Be

                      Is it any surprise of how voters are acting when 60% of them want to get rid of all in office?

                      Sanders is antiestablishment too. Bernie has 42% of the Democrat popular vote so far.

                      Trump has 39.7% and Lucifer (Cruz) has 27.1%; that's 66.8% of the Republican vote that is anti establishment.

                      The citizenry is very angry folks! Typically participation in Presidential elections is 58% to 62%. How many of the 38% who don't vote will be driven to Trump if he is the nominee? In this age of cell phone dominance can the polling actually work to assess who the public wants?

                      We may be facing an election with the two most disliked candidates in history. Nothing that happens will be a surprise. Reagan was trailing Carter at this point in the 1980 race, and we know how that turned out.

                      I don't want Trump but he may not be a sure loser. Every thing is far too volatile this year to predict anything.


                      And now there is this news:

                      http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ..._41_clinton_39


                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3bUicXNWz4
                      Last edited by vt; May 02, 2016, 11:36 AM.

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                      • #71
                        Re: From Sanders to Trump - What a Long Strange Trip it'll Be

                        Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
                        I would suggest that The Donald is as crazy Jack D. Ripper...It's awful that Trump is a racist blowhard but only the utterly uninformed and voters with a death wish will vote for him.
                        I respect that you've come to your support of Clinton for the best of reasons, santafe2. I don't agree with them, but I think your motives are positive and that you believe you are making the best of the available choices.

                        There's no criticism of The Donald I haven't uttered myself and nothing I've read or heard so far makes me change my opinion of the guy. I still think Sanders is the better candidate with the better plan and we'll see what the next round of primaries will do to his continuing viability as he drives forward to the convention.

                        I don't believe I have a death wish and I don't believe I'm particularly racist or bigoted. What support I'd give The Donald is conditional on what happens to Sanders and has nothing at all to do with his stated opinions about Mexican immigrants or his command of foreign policy beyond the grand sweep of his America First/No Neocons vision. I would support him on the basis of 1) denying HRC the presidency, 2) destroying the current Democratic and Republican parties, and 3) implementing a TECI/infrastructure rebuild to goose aggregate demand, increase wages and get us out of deflation.

                        We have a different opinion on how to orient ourselves to the present crisis. I think I can continue to make a left case for Trump and look forward to having you to test it as I go along. But you are going to have to do better than what you've offered so far in terms of a counter argument, sf2. I already know the guy is a bigot and a boor. You're going to have to offer more than what to my ears amounts to much the same dismissive and moralistic tropes whites would play on black voters back in the bad old days.

                        In a sane electoral environment run for the benefit of choosing from among the best and wise, I'd never consider him. But if American politics must be a psycho circus, then I'm willing to roll the dice and make the orange haired-clown the ringmaster. God knows he can't be much worse than the clowns we've seen the past 30+ years.

                        And as I'll keep saying, the right people hate him.
                        Last edited by Woodsman; May 02, 2016, 02:19 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: From Sanders to Trump - What a Long Strange Trip it'll Be

                          +1
                          OF course, the attempts to label everyone who is enraged by the allowance of illegal immigrants at a level not seen in decades as a xenophobe.

                          I've had the could fortune to work with many talent immigrants from Russia, India, Australia, and more. I am not a xenophobe and sadly lot of regular folks get impacted by this illegal immigration crisis.

                          While the damage that some of these undocumented visitors/immigrants piles up weekly:
                          http://www.bostonherald.com/news/loc...o_be_dismissed
                          http://www.cbsnews.com/news/undocume...ancisco-woman/
                          http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-n...ears-in-prison
                          http://www.ktvu.com/news/97949140-story
                          https://www.texastribune.org/2016/02...ensive-record/

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: From Sanders to Trump - What a Long Strange Trip it'll Be

                            Originally posted by Woodsman View Post
                            There's no criticism of The Donald I haven't uttered myself and nothing I've read or heard so far makes me change my opinion of the guy. I still think Sanders is the better candidate with the better plan and we'll see what the next round of primaries will do to his continuing viability as he drives forward to the convention.
                            I will be fine with either candidate. Of the two, I think Sanders has ideas more in line with our needs and is likely a better person, but I don't think he's the better candidate. Personal opinion of course. If you really like Sander's message of revolution you may enjoy the book: The American Revolution of 1800, Sisson. It describes America's second revolution when Jefferson's Democratic-Republican party took office and the Federalist party transitioned out of power. Jefferson also had some unsavory aspects to his life and he was "elected" by the House after tying with Aaron Burr...speaking of unsavory characters.

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                            • #74
                              Re: From Sanders to Trump - What a Long Strange Trip it'll Be

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: From Sanders to Trump - What a Long Strange Trip it'll Be

                                Originally posted by vt View Post
                                Yup, "socialists" don't get how the 1/100 of 1% require most of the money. People on the right with maths skills keep voting against themselves. Must be the smart ones.

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