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In Home-Lending Push, Banks Misjudged Risk

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  • #16
    Re: In Home-Lending Push, Banks Misjudged Risk

    I'll remind everyone of the underlying reason for the success of these predictions: it is in understanding the "economy" as a Finance Economy, and in the analysis of its rise and fall as a process, not an event. It is a mistake to expect that the press will notice a fall in housing prices one quarter and that we'll see a recession at the same time. If you look back at the predictions, such as a call in the top of the housing market in June 2005, I also said a year was to pass before expectations of declining prices start to influence consumption, and perhaps another year after price declines are widely experienced before meaningful changes in actual consumer purchase decisions result, and then some time after that, recession. Barring any unexpected events that hammer consumer confidence and cause a recession to start sooner, that puts us into Q4 2007, more or less, as I explain in the Recession 2007 series.

    At the risk of presenting information prematurely, I'm working on an analysis that helps our readers understand the evolution of the process that started with the peak in housing prices 2005 and, simultaneously, of foreign purchases of net issuance of U.S. financial assets. According to our best estimates, the dual process of real estate price and foreign lending declines will continue into 2010 to 2015. With respect to government policy decisions to preserve elements of the savings/creditor class from the costs of the failure of leveraged bets, there appear to be five warning signs or symptoms of an impending inflation via monetization of debt:

    1) The central bank lessens the bond market's visibility into operations, such as by discontinuing long running reports of monetary aggregates. The elimination of M3 last year falls into that category. The purpose is to create uncertainty, making it difficult for the bond market to know which way to bet on the direction of the inflation risk premium. The result is that while confusion reins, the bond markets tread water. This presumably buys time for the Fed and Treasury to hit the road to make their last ditch sales pitch to Asia and "friendly" oil producers, to sell more bonds.

    2) The discontinuance or reformulation of long standing of inflation indexes and measures. This can take the form of outright lying, as occurred under the Nixon administration. The practice of changing inflation measures and indexes, especially the CPI, has been ongoing since the Nixon administration, so is hard to correlate short term changes with the start of an inflation. Again, this keeps the bond market guessing. The purpose is not to try to trick the bond market into seeing less inflation than exists, but rather to present data that confronts the bond market with a wide range of plausible data for interpretation. The bond market has to guess, for example, whether future inflation is likely to be 2% or 4%, with an even distribution of probabilities between the two extremes.

    3) Anecdotal evidence of net savers, especially high net worth, diversifying assets overseas. I see this as a trend over the past several years and accelerating now.

    4) Introduction of new ways to avoid monetizing debt, such as: An Insider Spills the Beans on Offshore Banking Centers

    5) Inverted yield curve. This can, of course, have other meanings, but in the presence of these other conditions can mean that the bond markets smell an imminent monetization, as explained here.

    Keep in mind is that you are witnessing a slow, long term process, not a sudden event, like the crash in a stock market. When a stock market crashes, everyone's portfolio is marked to market the next quarter. When housing bubbles deflate, millions of home owners only mark to market when they either try to sell or refi. One at a time, gradually. That means no post NASDAQ crash type "Ka" event, but a more gradual deflation. The loss in confidence of foreign lenders is also gradual, although sudden crisis-like events are quite possible, such as Charles de Gualle's demand for his country's gold in 1968. Even then, the general policy response didn't occur until three years later, in 1971.

    If you are looking for employment to drop off a cliff tomorrow, because the housing and foreign investment in the U.S. bubbles are deflating, you will be disappointed. The process doesn't work that way. Expect to experience the process the way you experience the condition of the fence deteriorating in your front yard. For years you see it every day when you come home, but do not notice. Only after you go away on a trip for a while and return do you may notice that the paint has peeled off and the fence isn't looking so good. To understand such a gradual process as I am describing, even though it is likely to be punctuated with crises, you need to "go away" from it in your mind and "see" what the economy looked like ten years ago, then five, and imagine what it might look like in five or ten. As I mentioned before, we are developing "peeling paint" indicators that help us detect these gradual otherwise imperceptible changes as the process continues.
    Last edited by FRED; February 09, 2007, 11:15 AM.

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    • #17
      Re: In Home-Lending Push, Banks Misjudged Risk

      Originally posted by DanielLCharts
      btw, jim, i'm not addressing you directly, it's a general rant.
      I didn't take it that you were, Daniel, but thanks for clarifying you weren't, for all you know I could be thin-skinned.

      I think it is good to see some counter-arguments here. About the only bullish individuals who express themselves and of whom I can readily think are DemonD and Finster in just thinking about equities, sorry if I am leaving anyone out.

      I wish I were compulsive enough and had the time to go back and read all you have posted, Daniel, to see if I could determine a change in the tenor of your thinking. It has not previously struck me that you were particularly bullish, but after your comments here, is it correct to say you are generally bullish on equities? Are you a bear that has capitulated? I hope you get back to this thread and will answer that.

      When I made a post last night on another thread, I questioned whether or not I should possibly find another place to post it, and perhaps this is the more appropriate place. http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...=6969#post6969 post #53.

      Originally posted by Stretch002
      Now to discuss where we think interest rates are headed...
      to which I replied,

      Originally posted by Jim Nickerson
      Thanks for your equanimity, Stretch.

      Interesting is that your last comment is something that has been on my mind, and I am sure many others' too.


      Last night I ran across an article by Paul Kasriel who is someone who strikes me as generally rational in his interpretation of data. He wrote an article: The Fed Probably Thinks It Is On Hold for All of 2007, February 7, 2007 http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/kasriel/2007/0207.html in which he posits that the next move by the Fed will be later this year "perhaps on August 7" and will be a rate cut.

      His article is devoted to contradicting the title of it. To me his arguments seem solid. He thinks the bottom in the housing market decline of real residential investment expenditures could go a bit further from about the -13% so far from their Q3:2005 peak, and notes that the average peak to trough since WWII is about 25% unless this time it is milder.

      For those who pay attention to EJ's Ka-Poom theory, he proposes there will be a period of disinflation. Kariel notes that core consumer inflation was decelerating in past two quarters of 2006. So my little mind's impression from this is that a period of disinflation is perhaps upon us or is still to be more manifested in the next 6-7 months.


      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Richard Russell, 2/8/07
      From MoneyNews
      Wednesday, Feb. 7, 2007

      NEW YORK –- Merrill Lynch is sounding the alarm on a global liquidity crunch as central banks in Europe and Asia tighten monetary policy and advise clients to avoid risk and switch to safer assets over the coming months.

      The bank said 2007 would be the "year of the dividend", with concern returning as the VIX and VDAX volatility indexes that are widely used in option trading rise from record lows.

      Merrill Lynch's chief European strategist Khuram Chaudhry said the bank thinks "global interest rates are going to rise a lot more than investors are discounting, and this is a worrisome outlook for profits.

      "We've seen liquidity everywhere, in equities, property, bonds. It's been a one-way bet for investors, and they've taken on a lot of risk. But they're not looking beyond the news to the slow drip-drip effect of interest rates. It matters when central banks tighten monetary policy," he continued.

      Although the Federal Reserve left interest rates unchanged at 5.25 percent at its last meeting for the fifth consecutive time, it's raised rates 17 times already since June 2004. But the bank pointed out that Europe has been slower and the Bank of Japan is still holding rates steady.

      Russell Comment -- Interesting and certainly not in tune with the PIMCO crowd. Bill Gross continues to think that rates in the US will be coming down during the second half of this year.







      So on one hand a bigwig at Merrill Lynch is suggesting international rates are going to tighten, which I presume will result in some cooling off of equity markets around the world. If Kasriel and Gross think rates will be coming down later this year, then it suggests to me that there is going to be something happening that will stop the runups that have occurred rather much worldwide in the equity markets.

      So back to you, Stretch (and I thought you would tell us your car was a long limo), rates may go down, and equities may go down, so ridding yourself of $50K now might turn out to be brilliant, unless I am missing something--which odds are, I am.
      Then last night Victoria Marklew http://www.safehaven.com/article-6875.htm thinks the ECB will likely hike rates to 3.75% in March, but she thinks that is unlikely to be the peak, and she wonders if the BoE will stop at its present 5.25% or perhaps go to 5.5%.

      Being there is a lag in rate hikes and subsequent "cooling" on inflationary pressures, it seems to me all this suggests a slowdown to come and I'll specify to come in the equity markets--something that certainly has not yet happened in the US. If Kasriel is correct, which only time will bear out, then I think something to the downside still lies ahead this year.

      I'm way over my head here in that I lack any expertise in these matters, so I hope no one "kills" me with counter-arguments; nevertheless, bring them on.

      Jim 69 y/o

      "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

      Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

      Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

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      • #18
        Re: In Home-Lending Push, Banks Misjudged Risk

        Analysts had expected HSBC’s 2006 loan impairment charge to be $8.8 billion, according to the average of 11 analysts’ forecasts, the bank said.

        That figure is now expected to be about $1.8 billion higher, or about $10.6 billion.

        ....

        It said apart from its mortgage services operations in the United States, the performance of HSBC’s businesses for 2006 was in line with expectations.
        A little more color to the HSBC announcement.

        Note the emphasis on the United States - no singling out of Household as the reason either in the PR or the conference call.

        This is a little surprising as the UK has also quite a real estate bubble going - on the other hand the UK has been much more active at the pump :rolleyes:

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        • #19
          Re: In Home-Lending Push, Banks Misjudged Risk

          Daniel,

          A lot has already been said, but I use this forum to gain a 'macro' understanding of what might be happening.

          Having said that, the call for independent metrics is a very reasonable request.

          Nonetheless I believe all along the 'trigger' for the potential forecast catastrophic events has always been stipulated as some type of unforeseen outside event - a terror attack, a sudden financial decision in one or more of various reserve banks/financial institutions, a trade war starting, etc.

          It is never wise to try and trade short-term on macro events, but the point of macro financial planning is to understand the areas which could be severely negatively impacted and to consider whether to commit resources to areas which might benefit.

          The example I would use is my own behavior during the housing boom which I have been observing since 1995.

          I deliberately chose to move to Texas from California because housing was highly unaffordable - while I would have been paid more in CA, I could not possibly have bought any reasonable type of housing for several years and would also have had to devote a major part of my income to rent and CA taxes.

          Had I done so, I would have seriously impacted my lifestyle and career choices.

          I wound up buying a property in Texas because the 3 BD/2 BA, 2 level house wound up costing me net about $100 more a month than rent of $500/month.

          Having the property with such a low cost enabled me to be flexible in many other things - including moving to Japan as an ex-pat for 3 years.

          I returned to California after this wonderful experience and having saved up nearly all of my ex-pat benefit package - I could have then bought a property in 2001, but again I made a macro choice not to.

          I did so because while housing was still as generally unaffordable as before, I noticed then that the wage price/employment growth was no longer keeping up with housing growth. This was a huge red flag to me.

          Certainly on the short term I missed out on a number of chances to cycle through properties and make some short term money in this process, but I again rather focus on my work and personal life than to try and sneak nickels out from in front of the steamroller.

          Now I am looking at ways to hedge against potential hyper-inflation - buying income-producing property outside of the US (but where!), looking at gold as a hedge, etc.

          I also am keeping a small put position out on a few stocks which I feel would most benefit (i.e. fall) in a number of best (worst) case scenarios, and am actively ending my position in financial stocks.

          As has been beat to death in other parts of this forum as well as elsewhere in the Internet, the true trigger in any final collapse is never predictable except in retrospect.

          The triggers are also pretty much always different - unsurprising as there are many vested interests militating against known factors.

          Trying to identify a trigger to make short term money is admirable, but very dangerous. As many others have said, the economy has more bank than any individual - just like the casino. You're better off staying out of games rigged against you!

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: In Home-Lending Push, Banks Misjudged Risk

            EJ: Your time-frame takes us into the era when the baby boomers will begin to retire en masse, which poses problems of its own. Will your analysis touch on this at all?

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            • #21
              Re: In Home-Lending Push, Banks Misjudged Risk

              ej, you said
              Inverted yield curve. This can, of course, have other meanings, but in the presence of these other conditions can mean that the bond markets smell an imminent monetization, as explained here.
              although you asserted this is the post to which you link, you never explained why it made sense. the example that preceded that statement was one in which long rates went UP, not down. if the markets "smell" monetization, wouldn't bonds sell off and long rates be higher? could you please clarify?

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              • #22
                Re: In Home-Lending Push, Banks Misjudged Risk

                daniel, iirc the crash of '29 and the great depression were originally triggered by the failure of a small bank in austria. [see kindleberger] you can't predict things like that. all you can do is try to analyze 1. whether a system is becoming progressively unstable and fragile, 2. what are the assumptions underlying current processes and market levels and are any of those assumptions questionable.

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                • #23
                  Re: In Home-Lending Push, Banks Misjudged Risk

                  Originally posted by DanielLCharts
                  so the self-congratulatory tone of many of the contrubitors here is a little wierd. the assumption that the economy is going slip into an abyss like the titanic is not at all a foregone event. perhaps the set up is there, but right now it's only fair to assume right now that you guys are wrong. 4 weeks of unemployment rolls at 350K+ and we can talk. until then, i still propose a respite on the reporting of anything negative. the bengals management could high five and laud each other endlessley over how fast and strong wilkinson was, but at the end of the day, none of it mattered because he still sucked.
                  Danny, just to let you know, I just was giving EJ credit for something that he got right, and that was that the system would be found to have been inundated with fraudulent activity. The evidence makes it clear that this is what, indeed, has happened, and I'm betting there will be a lot of people trying to get their last little bit of cash out of the RE boom this year with more fraudulent activity.

                  Other than that, I'm highly critical of the voices that are shouting down US based companies that are publicly traded, at least for the near term. I personally try to calibrate my decisions and opinions based on hard facts of reality... I consider myself a realist. Which means that if stocks go up another 10-15% this year, while there are bears here shouting them down, then I'm just as happy to be critical of that advice.

                  The reason I personally read itulip is that it gives a perspective that is grounded in reality but deals with issues that above and beyond normal financial reporting. Connecting the dots on some very widespread issues to the hows and whys of financial markets bringing together the chinese purchasing of us debt, the war in iraq, the yen carry trade, the gold reserves of the IMF... etc. etc. I feel it gives me a leg up in terms of confidence I have in my own investment decisions. It may not completely change or dictate how I invest, but it's part of my own fundamental analysis of how to maximize my own returns.

                  In any case, I think my kudos to EJ were deserved, and if the ka-poom theory does play out as predicted I will give him credit then too, and if it doesn't, well then I'll be right up there criticizing that too.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: In Home-Lending Push, Banks Misjudged Risk

                    Good points overall but...

                    Originally posted by DanielLCharts

                    i think the fact that a recession should have set in already in the last quarter, and the constant new highs in equity markets, which tend to discount (although not perfectly) a recession event about a half a year in advance, are two hugely irksome points that this community really has to struggle with. they are reality pills waiting to be swallowed.
                    I think "not perfectly" is an understatement on how well the supposed stock market 6 month lead is as a recession indicator. Here's the actual record, and it's far worse than most believe. Yield curve inversion as well as some other stats do much better.






                    Originally posted by DanielLCharts
                    i didn't believe ECRI, who have a pretty good track record of using leading indicators to predict recessions, that a recession in 2007 was improbable, but i have to side with them now.
                    I wish I could post a chart of ECRI's accuracy in recession prediction but it would be a copyright violation and unethical as well. But the data I've seen shows that it leads very little and I don't use them other than as a sentiment indicator. They actually do better with bottom calling by far, in my opinion.
                    http://www.NowAndTheFuture.com

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                    • #25
                      Re: In Home-Lending Push, Banks Misjudged Risk

                      In fact, there would never be a crash or any other sort of financial panic if people could see them coming. If people knew there would be a panic, they would act to protect themselves, eliminating the vulnerabilities that would have created the crash had they not acted. Yet, these things happen.

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                      • #26
                        Re: In Home-Lending Push, Banks Misjudged Risk

                        Originally posted by jk
                        ej, you said


                        although you asserted this is the post to which you link, you never explained why it made sense. the example that preceded that statement was one in which long rates went UP, not down. if the markets "smell" monetization, wouldn't bonds sell off and long rates be higher? could you please clarify?
                        Attached is the relevant part of the chapter from Dr. Langdana's book, Macroeconomic Policy Demystifying Monetary and Fiscal Policy reprinted with permission of the author. Analysis to follow.



                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: In Home-Lending Push, Banks Misjudged Risk

                          Daniel:

                          As a trader, I think to a great extent, you're falling into the trader's mindset that the market is identical with reality. It isn't. Yes, the market is the thing you play to make money, and as a trader this money is real to you. But eventually reality will come to bear on the market, and traders generally will not be ready.

                          I don't think I need to repeat the Keynes quote for you.

                          Anyway, here's a rundown of my recession indicators:

                          - dramatically rising crime
                          - inverted yield curve (not just fleeting; almost a year now)
                          - deteriorating median income
                          - obviously deteriorating consumer spending
                          - unbelievably high debt burden -- both public and household
                          - rising delinquencies and foreclosures
                          - virtual armageddon in the subprime sector, which is only just beginning to spread (my article of last week which you took issue with was if anything too conservative by saying "could" instead of "will")
                          - collapsing home building, which in itself should be enough proof (I got some great charts from you, but you seem to imply the chart of the stock market is a better prognosticator?)
                          - troughing unemployment (yes, troughing; as Mish aptly posted this past week, a recession has followed every dip below 5.5% unemployment)
                          - ... I could dredge up more but I'm tired ;)

                          Asking "when the recession will come" is asking the wrong question. It's already here. The question is when will the market (be forced to) realize, and secondarily when will the obtuse NBER finally classify it as a recession (note that, even by their own narrow criterion, they only do so 6 months to a year after the fact, which isn't exactly helpful for financial planning).

                          As far as subprime, you can't make this shit up:



                          And as far as Eric, Mish, and Jim's performance (which I'm sure has actually been spectacular if they've just bought and held a fair amount of gold and natural resources over the past few years), past performance is no indicator of future results.

                          I want to be ready for tomorrow, not yesterday. The coverage on this site is, in my opinion, top-notch for determining the fundamentals that will set the stage for tomorrow.
                          Last edited by akrowne; February 09, 2007, 11:11 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Re: In Home-Lending Push, Banks Misjudged Risk

                            I'll bet that if NBER's recession classification was comprehensive instead of based on the GDP and associated lies and hence unrealistically narrow, the stock market's predictive power would look even worse (in other words, the market would typically crash when a recession is contemporaneous).

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                            • #29
                              Re: In Home-Lending Push, Banks Misjudged Risk

                              It's also hard to read inflation expectations from the bond market when most of the buying consists of a bunch of price-insensitive FCBs.

                              It also probably distorts things when the government plays games like what it did from 2001-2006 in eliminating the long bond (a move to crash yields on 10-year-based RMBS?)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: In Home-Lending Push, Banks Misjudged Risk

                                Originally posted by akrowne
                                Daniel:

                                As a trader, I think to a great extent, you're falling into the trader's mindset that the market is identical with reality. It isn't. Yes, the market is the thing you play to make money, and as a trader this money is real to you. But eventually reality will come to bear on the market, and traders generally will not be ready.
                                Aaron, I wholeheartedly agree. The way I see it is that the market reflects the economy, it does not predict it. Decreases in housing permits and inverted yield curves in the past have been much better indicators for prediction. The market is great for discounting and reflecting current news and earnings, it is not a leading indicator to my way of thinking. NEW reports that they will have to restate earnings and that their current earnings are going to take a hit, and their stock drops 50% in one day. Therefore this is a lagging indicator (the stock price). A leading indicator would have been the foreclosure rates that are accelerating, the decrease in housing starts, decrease in housing volume and prices, which the market has just barely started to price in.

                                If the market was a leading indicator, then all these subprime mortgage companies would have had 25-75% declines in the past 6 months instead of the past 6 days.

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