Numbers show a second-rate US

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Numbers show a second-rate US

All recent administrations since roughly the '60s have shown declining stats and efficiency. This is not about political parties.

Since only Democrats or Republicans have been in charge since '60 and "forever" based on lifespans, perhaps what is needed is another party(ies).

For everyone in the country to have only two choices is exceedingly narrow. Probably we should have 20-25 pertinent parties that might govern by coalitions.

[bart]

Re: Numbers show a second-rate US

Since only Democrats or Republicans have been in charge since '60 and "forever" based on lifespans, perhaps what is needed is another party(ies).

For everyone in the country to have only two choices is exceedingly narrow. Probably we should have 20-25 pertinent parties that might govern by coalitions.

Agreed... and getting over the spin about "wasting" a vote by voting for an alternate party is one of the steps.

An interesting sidelight is the Pirate Party in Sweden ( Wiki entry ), as an example of a sign of the times and dissatisfaction with existing parties and laws, and also for how they caused changes in more major parties just due to their platform. Its very reminiscent to me of some of the "sass" and out-of-the-box thinking of the '60s.

(note to jk: I'm not promoting or condoning the stealing of intellectual property, just in case)

[Finster]

Re: Numbers show a second-rate US

Since only Democrats or Republicans have been in charge since '60 and "forever" based on lifespans, perhaps what is needed is another party(ies).

For everyone in the country to have only two choices is exceedingly narrow. Probably we should have 20-25 pertinent parties that might govern by coalitions.

Here here! Those of us who are fed up with Democans and Republicrats badly need a broader menu. There are some other parties, of course, such as Libertarian, Constitution, and whatnot, but they actually have procedural disadvantages getting on ballots, not to mention being treated by the "mainstream" media as little more than sideshow curiosities.

[BK]

Re: Itulip - Federal Reserve- and too much intervention

I'm a baffled by the response of Itulip Readers...
The Reason Itulip exists is a result of a organization created at the very beginnings of Big Government - THE FEDERAL RESERVE.
How does anyone who is a contributor/reader of Itulip even entertain that more Government Interventional (in anything) will have a positive outcome for the Citizens.
Think Fannie Me, Freddie Mac, Social Security, the No-Child -Left -Behind Act, and the Department of Education.....
These overly powerful Government Agencies, GSEs, and well intentioned legislation leads to the impoverishment of the Citizens.

Is anyone else with me on this....the very article that started this thread is a very Democrat sponsored Think Tank.

[bart]

Re: Itulip - Federal Reserve- and too much intervention

I'm a baffled by the response of Itulip Readers...
The Reason Itulip exists is a result of a organization created at the very beginnings of Big Government - THE FEDERAL RESERVE.
How does anyone who is a contributor/reader of Itulip even entertain that more Government Interventional (in anything) will have a positive outcome for the Citizens.
Think Fannie Me, Freddie Mac, Social Security, the No-Child -Left -Behind Act, and the Department of Education.....
These overly powerful Government Agencies, GSEs, and well intentioned legislation leads to the impoverishment of the Citizens.

Is anyone else with me on this....the very article that started this thread is a very Democrat sponsored Think Tank.

Maybe I'm missing something huge but I'm confused by your response - I just don't see anything substantive in this thread that disagrees with your points.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Itulip - Federal Reserve- and too much intervention

I'm a baffled by the response of Itulip Readers...
The Reason Itulip exists is a result of a organization created at the very beginnings of Big Government - THE FEDERAL RESERVE.
How does anyone who is a contributor/reader of Itulip even entertain that more Government Interventional (in anything) will have a positive outcome for the Citizens.
Think Fannie Me, Freddie Mac, Social Security, the No-Child -Left -Behind Act, and the Department of Education.....
These overly powerful Government Agencies, GSEs, and well intentioned legislation leads to the impoverishment of the Citizens.

Is anyone else with me on this....the very article that started this thread is a very Democrat sponsored Think Tank.

BK,

From what I can recall, perhaps incorrectly, I don't remember you ever writing anything that supports a government--which is fine with me, but I am not with you in that I do not believe the masses can live without some form of order, and it takes something called "government" to attempt having such order.

It would be an interesting experiment to see how our 290 million people would interact without some form of government. Government as we have had for some while is rotten in my opinion. The problem as I see it is to arrive at a government that is not rotten. I personally do not believe having no government would be better than what we have.

[jk]

Re: Numbers show a second-rate US

i find myself wanting to get into nitpicking theoretical debates. a bad sign. perhaps instead of arguing over the best theoretical view of government, we can try to come up with steps to take here and now. i know that last night, after reading some here, i was inspired to give some money to 4 political candidates in this fall's election. i don't expect my contributions to make a lot of difference, but what can i do? any suggestions? [restrain yourselves]

[Finster]

Re: Itulip - Federal Reserve- and too much intervention

I'm a baffled by the response of Itulip Readers...
The Reason Itulip exists is a result of a organization created at the very beginnings of Big Government - THE FEDERAL RESERVE.
How does anyone who is a contributor/reader of Itulip even entertain that more Government Interventional (in anything) will have a positive outcome for the Citizens.
Think Fannie Me, Freddie Mac, Social Security, the No-Child -Left -Behind Act, and the Department of Education.....
These overly powerful Government Agencies, GSEs, and well intentioned legislation leads to the impoverishment of the Citizens.

Is anyone else with me on this...

Yes... me.

[Finster]

Re: Numbers show a second-rate US

i find myself wanting to get into nitpicking theoretical debates. a bad sign. perhaps instead of arguing over the best theoretical view of government, we can try to come up with steps to take here and now. i know that last night, after reading some here, i was inspired to give some money to 4 political candidates in this fall's election. i don't expect my contributions to make a lot of difference, but what can i do? any suggestions? [restrain yourselves]

I'm up for nitpicking theoretical debates ...

[bart]

Re: Numbers show a second-rate US

i find myself wanting to get into nitpicking theoretical debates. a bad sign. perhaps instead of arguing over the best theoretical view of government, we can try to come up with steps to take here and now. i know that last night, after reading some here, i was inspired to give some money to 4 political candidates in this fall's election. i don't expect my contributions to make a lot of difference, but what can i do? any suggestions? [restrain yourselves]

Open up the various issues with friends?
Write an article?
Write your US Congress and state critters?
Keep educating yourself?
Find a local organization with whose aims you agree and volunteer?
Take a walk or drive when needed to help keep perspective, it helps me... and I should do it more often too...



Watch out for that Finster critter... or better yet, amuse yourself with a nit picking senseless debate with him. He's really good at it. ;)
Maybe he'll even start a thread for senseless debates so a break can be taken from excess seriousness... I've had my clock cleaned more times than I can count and had fun too...

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Numbers show a second-rate US

we can try to come up with steps to take here and now.

I am sorry jk, but there is nothing anyone can do now, except to capitulate and continue to play the game as it has been played.

i know that last night, after reading some here, i was inspired to give some money to 4 political candidates in this fall's election.

"A fool and his money are soon parted." Realistically you should consult one of your associates and get a prescription for some anti-manic medication.

i don't expect my contributions to make a lot of difference

You don't expect your contributions to make a lot of difference, but yet you gave anyway. Is that some sort of a mental disorder?

what can i do? any suggestions?

You cannot do anything, but seriously, there are several things that could be done collectively. Outlaw religion in the United States [and world] except, of course, maintain the right to worship alone in your closet, and enact something like secular Sharia laws--stoning, beheading, cutting off hands, etc., stop electing lawyers to make laws in the same sense you would not hire bank robbers to guard banks, legalize illicit drugs and prostitution, do away with cash, enact a national health scheme, do away with the jury system, stop lobbying when it comes to passing laws, pass laws that require licensure in order to produce offspring, go back to a gold standard. Those are some that pop into my cynical mind.

[Finster]

Re: Numbers show a second-rate US

...
Watch out for that Finster critter... or better yet, amuse yourself with a nit picking senseless debate with him. He's really good at it. ;)
Maybe he'll even start a thread for senseless debates so a break can be taken from excess seriousness... I've had my clock cleaned more times than I can count and had fun too...

... tell ya what ... I'll wear him down with some nit picking senseless debate, and then you can sneak up behind and bag him with a chart ...

[bart]

Re: Numbers show a second-rate US

... tell ya what ... I'll wear him down with some nit picking senseless debate, and then you can sneak up behind and bag him with a chart ...

Deal!

I have the perfect chart in mind:

[Finster]

Re: Itulip - Federal Reserve- and too much intervention

Maybe I'm missing something huge but I'm confused by your response - I just don't see anything substantive in this thread that disagrees with your points.

It's a little subtle. Take the remark that appears near the beginning that implies it is our "market driven model" that is at fault for "highly varied results":

"Compared to other advanced economies, our market-driven model yields highly varied results regarding the living standards of our citizens," notes a study by the Economic Policy Institute (EPI), a nonpartisan think tank in Washington.

This kind of attack on economic freedom - based on egalitarian principle - is a hallmark of the big-government mindset.

Yet later on in the article - under "Antispin", the accusatory finger is pointed at big-government policies that actively interfere with free markets and foster inequity:

"Rather than show a US government pursuing a deregulated economy, the report shows the US government as no less interventionist than other governments reviewed in the study, but shows that government intervention in markets in the US "tends to favor business more than the poor."

...

US policy makers need to develop a culture of respect toward the portion of American society that the EPI study reveals as losing from a set of policies of government intervention in markets over the past decade that favor wealth concentration. Instead, there appears to be a culture of contempt which, as the economy heads into recession, is likely to produce a level of civil unrest that may put American democratic society to its greatest test in 70 years."

The thrust here is not that free market economics itself results in the cited economic problems, but government interference. Depite numerous programs specifically targeted to narrow wealth inequality, the net result of the governments activities actually foster more concentration of wealth. It may not be so apparent how this happens, but my view is that inflation disproportionately disadvantages the poor and lower middle class. One way in which it does this I've discussed elsewhere, by making saving a losing proposition and making it easier for corporate elites to enrich themselves, for example:

This might seem a bit paranoid, but I am convinced one of the reasons we have inflation is that Wall Street likes it. If interest rates were too high in relation to inflation, ordinary saving would be worthwhile. Corporations would have to provide good justification to shareholders for entrusting their capital to them. Managements would have to be good stewards of capital and have a discerning shareholder base looking over their shoulders. But with interest rates low compared to inflation, savers at the margin have little choice but to own stocks.

http://www.itulip.com/forums/showpos...65&postcount=5

[bart]

Re: Itulip - Federal Reserve- and too much intervention

It's a little subtle. Take the remark that appears near the beginning that implies it is our "market driven model" that is at fault for "highly varied results":

...


The thrust here is not that free market economics itself results in the cited economic problems, but government interference. Depite numerous programs specifically targeted to narrow wealth inequality, the net result of the governments activities actually foster more concentration of wealth. It may not be so apparent how this happens, but my view is that inflation disproportionately disadvantages the poor and lower middle class. One way in which it does this I've discussed elsewhere, by making saving a losing proposition and making it easier for corporate elites to enrich themselves, for example:



http://www.itulip.com/forums/showpos...65&postcount=5

You're right, and thanks bunches Fin - it was a bit too subtle for me to notice.

I now give those portions a :mad: