$134.5 in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

[FRED]

$134.5 billion in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

Why did the government take so long to comment? Why did government representatives say so little? Why were the perpetrators Japanese? Why did the Italian authorities let them go? Why has the mainstream media said so little about it?

Using fake government securities to defraud investors is a scam as old as government securities themselves.

We knew the $134.5 billion in bonds were fake two weeks ago and a week before the U.S. Treasury confirmed this to be the case. How did we know? Simple: the Treasury didn't print bonds after the early 1980s, and all of the bonds printed before then totaled less than $4 billion in face value.

Fake securities are only illegal if they are used in the perpetration of a fraud or are counterfeits of actual U.S. securities.

No one stepped forward as the intended buyer, so there was no fraud.

The fake bonds were not replicas of real U.S. government bonds--were not even remotely similar--so they were not counterfeits.

Unable to charge the two men with either fraud or counterfeiting, with nothing but a pile of pretty paper, the Italian authorities had to let them go.

Why were they Japanese? Every country has its share scammers. Japan, too.

What was the motive for the scam? Who knows? Maybe they planned to use the fake bonds as collateral for a loan. There are too many scams involving government securities to name them all here.

That's it. That's all there is to it. What were we and the MSM supposed to do while uncovering the facts? Spin conspiracy theories?

We'll leave that to the Tin Foil Hat crowd.

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[pianodoctor]

Re: $134.5 in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

Your point is the point I tried to make twice in the original iTulip thread http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=104405, by posting this link: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/m...7m10bonds.html

Got no traction though.

[metalman]

Re: $134.5 in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

Your point is the point I tried to make twice in the original iTulip thread http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=104405, by posting this link: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/m...7m10bonds.html

Got no traction though.

you got hit with 376 lbs of crazy...

(can ya believe that got 1m+ views? :eek

[waysouth]

Re: $134.5 in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

actually Japan has much more than its fair share of scammers..

a civilised person's Nigeria really

[cjppjc]

Re: $134.5 in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

I'm up to 7-10 email scams a week now.:eek:

[Obamasan]

Re: $134.5 in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

$134.5 billion in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

Why did the government take so long to comment? Why did government representatives say so little? Why were the perpetrators Japanese? Why did the Italian authorities let them go? Why has the mainstream media said so little about it?

Using fake government securities to defraud investors is a scam as old as government securities themselves.

We knew the $134.5 billion in bonds were fake two weeks ago and a week before the U.S. Treasury confirmed this to be the case. How did we know? Simple: the Treasury didn't print bonds after the early 1980s, and all of the bonds printed before then totaled less than $4 billion in face value.

Fake securities are only illegal if they are used in the perpetration of a fraud or are counterfeits of actual U.S. securities.

No one stepped forward as the intended buyer, so there was no fraud.

The fake bonds were not replicas of real U.S. government bonds--were not even remotely similar--so they were not counterfeits.

Unable to charge the two men with either fraud or counterfeiting, with nothing but a pile of pretty paper, the Italian authorities had to let them go.

Why were they Japanese? Every country has its share scammers. Japan, too.

That's it. That's all there is to it. What were we and the MSM supposed to do while uncovering the facts? Spin conspiracy theories?

We'll leave that to the Tin Foil Hat crowd.

One thing continues to puzzle me however: yes we know criminals are for the most part stupid (or they wouldn't be criminals would they, but are we to assume the perpetrators were stupid enough to think they would cash the bloody things in, or even con-lob them off to some naif for a couple million (naif with a couple million laying around)?

Where do you spend a one billion dollar bill? Answer - nowhere. The denominations are so outrageously large that I can't see where the scam is.

[metalman]

Re: $134.5 in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

One thing continues to puzzle me however: yes we know criminals are for the most part stupid (or they wouldn't be criminals would they, but are we to assume the perpetrators were stupid enough to think they would cash the bloody things in, or even con-lob them off to some naif for a couple million (naif with a couple million laying around)?

Where do you spend a one billion dollar bill? Answer - nowhere. The denominations are so outrageously large that I can't see where the scam is.

google is your friend...

this too..

[Obamasan]

Re: $134.5 in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

google is your friend...

this too..

I scanned the first page and one of the likely on the list from the second page - the largest face value denomination mentioned was $1000, that number can be sold to a mark.

My question goes unanswered - how do you pawn off a phony 1 billion dollar bill? I cannot imagine what those who printed these things had in mind.

[ASH]

Re: $134.5 in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

I scanned the first page and one of the likely on the list from the second page - the largest face value denomination mentioned was $1000, that number can be sold to a mark.

My question goes unanswered - how do you pawn off a phony 1 billion dollar bill? I cannot imagine what those who printed these things had in mind.

The idea we sort of converged upon is that there was never any intention to negotiate the fake securities. For instance, my wife had it figured out on 6/11:

Edit: My wife points out that this may not represent an actual transaction, but rather a market manipulation. Say someone is short the dollar, and hires some Japanese to get caught carrying $135B in (forged) bonds across the Swiss border, trusting the market to put two-and-two together from the headline to conclude from the size of the sum that a government is selling out of the dollar. Perhaps they can trigger a panic and realize some huge trading gains before the forgery is detected?

For that matter, if this is the work of a government, one wonders why a courier would be employed who is subjected to inspection? Isn't there such a thing as diplomatic mail? Could not a government get the bonds into and out of Switzerland without risking detection at a border crossing? Diplomatic niceties aside, wouldn't any entity transacting in these sums have the resources required to move a few reams of paper undetected? Assuming the story isn't a hoax or misreported, this smacks a little of someone who wishes to be caught.

iTulip put forward the same interpretation a week later.

Here's our best guess at the scam.

Step 1: Take a large short position in US Treasury bonds.

Step 2: Get your Japanese friends to "smuggle" forged Treasury bonds into a country where you are likely to get "caught."

Step 3: When the rumors fly and the bonds tank, close out your shorts.

Beats working.

[Obamasan]

Re: $134.5 in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

The idea we sort of converged upon is that there was never any intention to negotiate the fake securities. For instance, my wife had it figured out on 6/11:

Edit: My wife points out that this may not represent an actual transaction, but rather a market manipulation. Say someone is short the dollar, and hires some Japanese to get caught carrying $135B in (forged) bonds across the Swiss border, trusting the market to put two-and-two together from the headline to conclude from the size of the sum that a government is selling out of the dollar. Perhaps they can trigger a panic and realize some huge trading gains before the forgery is detected?

For that matter, if this is the work of a government, one wonders why a courier would be employed who is subjected to inspection? Isn't there such a thing as diplomatic mail? Could not a government get the bonds into and out of Switzerland without risking detection at a border crossing? Diplomatic niceties aside, wouldn't any entity transacting in these sums have the resources required to move a few reams of paper undetected? Assuming the story isn't a hoax or misreported, this smacks a little of someone who wishes to be caught.

iTulip put forward the same interpretation a week later.

Here's our best guess at the scam.

Step 1: Take a large short position in US Treasury bonds.

Step 2: Get your Japanese friends to "smuggle" forged Treasury bonds into a country where you are likely to get "caught."

Step 3: When the rumors fly and the bonds tank, close out your shorts.

Beats working.

Thanks for bringing me up to speed, the idea of inducing some market panic sounds plausible. It fits also when you consider Italy to Switzerland is a very "benign" border crossing. If they weren't trying to get caught they never would have been at that particular border crossing.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Re: $134.5 in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

We knew the $134.5 billion in bonds were fake two weeks ago and a week before the U.S. Treasury confirmed this to be the case. How did we know? Simple: the Treasury didn't print bonds after the early 1980s, and all of the bonds printed before then totaled less than $4 billion in face value.

So, you are willing to hang your entire argument on various specific assertions by the US Treasury?

That's fine... but I'm not so sure the Treasury isn't lying about this, or about anything else they currently say, or have ever said.

If we have learned one thing in the last 100 years, wouldn't it be that the Federal Government is capable of lying about just about anything? And that they in fact have amassed a pretty incredible track record of lies and deception?

I'm not saying that this whole incident amounts to anything... in fact, probably it doesn't. But when your argument rests on the assumption that the Federal Government is telling the truth about something, frankly, that should call your argument into question immediately.

Just sayin'.

[cjppjc]

Re: $134.5 in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

So, you are willing to hang your entire argument on various specific assertions by the US Treasury?

That's fine... but I'm not so sure the Treasury isn't lying about this, or about anything else they currently say, or have ever said.

If we have learned one thing in the last 100 years, wouldn't it be that the Federal Government is capable of lying about just about anything? And that they in fact have amassed a pretty incredible track record of lies and deception?

I'm not saying that this whole incident amounts to anything... in fact, probably it doesn't. But when your argument rests on the assumption that the Federal Government is telling the truth about something, frankly, that should call your argument into question immediately.

Just sayin'.

Absolutley. If it turns out Treasury is lying, who would be surprised? I for one would not be surprised to hear anything.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: $134.5 in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

So, you are willing to hang your entire argument on various specific assertions by the US Treasury?

That's fine... but I'm not so sure the Treasury isn't lying about this, or about anything else they currently say, or have ever said.

I like the way you think .

I tend to take public pronouncements and statistics, especially on anything likely to be noted, as slightly contrary indicators.

[Master Shake]

Re: $134.5 in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

So, you are willing to hang your entire argument on various specific assertions by the US Treasury?

That's fine... but I'm not so sure the Treasury isn't lying about this, or about anything else they currently say, or have ever said.

If we have learned one thing in the last 100 years, wouldn't it be that the Federal Government is capable of lying about just about anything? And that they in fact have amassed a pretty incredible track record of lies and deception?

I'm not saying that this whole incident amounts to anything... in fact, probably it doesn't. But when your argument rests on the assumption that the Federal Government is telling the truth about something, frankly, that should call your argument into question immediately.

Just sayin'.

What you say is true, but it is also the starting point for batshit crazy conspiracy theories for those who are quick to abandon logic and rational thought. For some, it's an easy step from "we know the government lies and will harm it's own citizens" to "9-11 was an inside job."

[metalman]

Re: $134.5 in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat

What you say is true, but it is also the starting point for batshit crazy conspiracy theories for those who are quick to abandon logic and rational thought. For some, it's an easy step from "we know the government lies and will harm it's own citizens" to "9-11 was an inside job."

doesn't matter if the treasury is lying or not.... we took their word out of the equation here 3 week ago.

a dozen independent sources document the fact that the treasury never printed more than $4billion in bonds. total. ever. and stopped printing any in the early 1980s.

possible that the treasury has fooled everyone for the past 25 yrs? sure... and we didn't land on the moon, either.