The Ground Gives Way - Eric Janszen

[LazyBoy]

Re: The Ground Gives Way - Eric Janszen

No. It was precipitated by policies that resulted from the capture of the US federal, state, and local governments by the Finance, Insurance, and Real Estate industries.

Fine. I guess I'm having trouble finding the "unfortunately prophetic" part of the wikipedia quote at the end of the article.

[c1ue]

Re: The Ground Gives Way - Eric Janszen

Is this what ituliper's really think is causing the current collapse? The welfare state?!

Welfare for whom? Bankers?

[FRED]

Re: The Ground Gives Way - Eric Janszen

Fine. I guess I'm having trouble finding the "unfortunately prophetic" part of the wikipedia quote at the end of the article.

The capture of the US federal, state, and local governments by the Finance, Insurance, and Real Estate industries is a form of corporatism based on values that are hostile to capitalism, as Schumpeter predicted.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: The Ground Gives Way - Eric Janszen

No. It was precipitated by policies that resulted from the capture of the US federal, state, and local governments by the Finance, Insurance, and Real Estate industries.

I.e., the corporate welfare state, or more precisely the rentier welfare state.

I may not be up on my terminology, but I don't read what FRED wrote the same as I read what Vinoveri wrote. To me a welfare state would be one in which (excessive) money is transferred to the welfare recipients, in this case the corporations and rentiers.

While no doubt that is an element of what is happening, I tend more to agree with what I think FRED wrote. I read "capture of ... governments" to mean undue control, not just to extract (excessive) money, but also to manipulate policy and propaganda, and to abuse regulatory, taxing, military and other powers to various ends chosen by the capturers.

What the most powerful "need" the most is power, control. That is, what they fear is the loss of power.

[vinoveri]

Re: The Ground Gives Way - Eric Janszen

I may not be up on my terminology, but I don't read what FRED wrote the same as I read what Vinoveri wrote. To me a welfare state would be one in which (excessive) money is transferred to the welfare recipients, in this case the corporations and rentiers.

While no doubt that is an element of what is happening, I tend more to agree with what I think FRED wrote. I read "capture of ... governments" to mean undue control, not just to extract (excessive) money, but also to manipulate policy and propaganda, and to abuse regulatory, taxing, military and other powers to various ends chosen by the capturers.

What the most powerful "need" the most is power, control. That is, what they fear is the loss of power.

Agreed.
I was a bit sloppy in not making the distinction. I think the term welfare state connotes, for most, what you describe - money being transferred to the welfare recipients directly from the gov, e.g., military industrial complex, auto industry et cet including tax and regulatory breaks and the like. And of course in any other time, the gov giving $100s Billions to private banks would most likely not fly (as it is today).

Could though the monetary system as we know it with its inherent bias towards and inevitable inflation be construed as a welfare system to the rentiers and banks?
I suppose its not so much "welfare" in terms of transfer payments, but rather a system that allow banks and "preferred dealers" to borrow low and lend high, and to get to use the fiat money first as its created by the Fed, among other things.

[DrYB/C]

Re: The Ground Gives Way - Eric Janszen

1. Quote from Quick Comment: “How will our political economy develop out of the global crisis that the demise of the FIRE Economy is creating?

I leave you with this from his Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy, and a view of the future that strikes us as unfortunately prophetic.

Schumpeter's theory is that the success of capitalism will lead to a form of corporatism and a fostering of values hostile to capitalism, especially among intellectuals….He argued that capitalism's collapse from within will come about as democratic majorities vote for the creation of a welfare state and place restrictions upon entrepreneurship that will burden and destroy the capitalist structure….”

2. Quote: “The Marxist Leon Trotsky understood this. Speaking of German and Italian fascism, Trotsky said fascism requires “a great deal of socialist demagogy. This is necessary for the creation of the mass movement. The genuine basis (for fascism) is the petty bourgeoisie. In Italy, it has a very large base — the petty bourgeoisie of the towns and cities, and the peasantry. In Germany, likewise, there is a large base for fascism.” Mussolini’s fascist mass movement did not consist primarily of “petty bourgeoisie” followers as Trotsky seems to indicate, but had a large number of more affluent middle and upper class followers as well, an important and indeed required element due to the fact fascism is not a truly revolutionary ideology but one that preserves the socioeconomic status quo at all costs under the cover of revolution. As the communist political theorist Antonio Gramsci correctly noted, fascism represents the “Caesarism” of the ruling elite….”
http://www.infowars.com/?p=7205

When itulip and infowars are of the same mind, the world has truly changed. Easter Island, anyone??

Related:
1. What Recession? The $170 Million Inauguration
Obama's Inauguration Has Been Financed Partially by Bailed-Out Wall Street Executives
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Inaug...6665946&page=1
2. Celebrities make service pledge videos to Obama on MySpace
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Celebr...s_to_0119.html

p.s.
The only market for entrepreneurs will be in helping the FIRE-Economy Kings secure their crown.

Pan-global economic breakdown and war will make tangible the costs of failing to choose Green Fascism.

Green Fascism will be chosen.

[FRED]

Re: The Ground Gives Way - Eric Janszen

When itulip and infowars are of the same mind, the world has truly changed. Easter Island, anyone??

I can hand select a section of Mein Kampf and of of Pat Buchanan's State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America that agree, but that does not make Pat Buchanan a Nazi.

[metalman]

Re: The Ground Gives Way - Eric Janszen

I can hand select a section of Mein Kampf and of of Pat Buchanan's State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America that agree, but that does not make Pat Buchanan a Nazi.

he, he. next... itulip is just like prisonplanet but without the CRAZY!

[seobook]

Re: The Ground Gives Way - Eric Janszen

Which Schumpeter book(s) would you (EJ, metalman, ...) recommend for my modest economics library?

I started a search to purchase "Business Cycles", but the few copies available on Amazon cost between $132 and $600+, which is a bit rich for me, especially the $600+ copy.

Several other Schumpeter books were available however, at more ordinary prices, such as "The Theory of Economic Development", "History of Economic Analysis", "Capitalism, Socialism, and Democracy", and "Ten Great Economists".

[P.S. - Lordy, lordy. Half.com has "Business Cycles" for $1,950.00 at http://product.half.ebay.com/_W0QQpr...QQcpidZ1044822.]

found this link to an abridged PDF version on Google
classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/Schumpeter_joseph/business_cycles/schumpeter_business_cycles.pdf
for that price you could always print it out and put it in a binder

[DrYB/C]

Re: The Ground Gives Way - Eric Janszen

I can hand select a section of Mein Kampf and of of Pat Buchanan's State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America that agree, but that does not make Pat Buchanan a Nazi.

Agreed, but wherein lies the difference? It lies in rational responses to easily discernible facts (itulip) versus irrational responses to said facts (infowars).

p.s.
No offense was meant; truth lies in many different places, and I look for it, and find it, everywhere.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: The Ground Gives Way - Eric Janszen

found this link to an abridged PDF version on Google
classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/Schumpeter_joseph/business_cycles/schumpeter_business_cycles.pdf
for that price you could always print it out and put it in a binder

Aha - thanks.

I also just realized, that as a newly enrolled student (economics) at a University (Univ. North Texas) with a major library, I likely had access to the book via my University library. Sure enough, I do, both the original and the abridged version.

I recommend you sell Amazon short ... my book purchasing budget was just adjusted downward.

[Rajiv]

Re: The Ground Gives Way - Eric Janszen

Finance the Islamic way at Michigan bank

Big financial institutions have been battered by mortgages gone bad. But a tiny Michigan bank is getting attention in the industry by turning a profit on loans without even charging interest.

Its specialty: financial products that comply with Islamic law. That means no collecting interest, no short selling and no contracts that are considered exceedingly risky.

It also rules out some of the activity that got Western finance in trouble—subprime mortgages, credit default swaps and the like.

"When you look at the economic crisis we're in, if you were to follow Islamic or Sharia financing, you couldn't have this crisis," said John Sickler, corporate director for the bank, University Islamic Financial Corp. in Ann Arbor.

Islamic finance operations aren't prohibited from making a profit. Far from it. Instead, banks that comply with Islamic law, or Sharia, earn money from fees that are part of the cost of the loan, some paid up front and some over time.

University Islamic Financial has two types of financing, one called a marked-up installment sale and the other a lease-to-purchase sale. Fees in both cases are comparable to interest payments in traditional loans, bank officials say.

For example: A seller who bought a house for $100,000 could sell it for $120,000 or even $300,000, provided the buyer agrees it's a fair deal. The home could be sold on an installment plan negotiated by buyer and seller.

The bank is a subsidiary of Michigan-based University Bank, and its leaders say they have talked recently with executives from two national banks hoping to learn more about the business.

Islamic law says money cannot grow by itself, the way it does with compounding interest. Trade is acceptable as long as the equal amounts of money are traded or two different things are swapped with a fairly negotiated price.
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[GRG55]

Re: The Ground Gives Way - Eric Janszen

Finance the Islamic way at Michigan bank

"When you look at the economic crisis we're in, if you were to follow Islamic or Sharia financing, you couldn't have this crisis," said John Sickler, corporate director for the bank, University Islamic Financial Corp. in Ann Arbor.

I don't know how he can make such a statement. To suggest that Islamic finance is some sort of panacea completely ignores the current banking situation in the Arabian Gulf. To save their economies more and more of the Gulf states are having to bail out their banking systems, including Islamic investment banks.

There is no restriction to foolish lending or making bad deals.

[Rajiv]

Re: The Ground Gives Way - Eric Janszen

There is no restriction to foolish lending or making bad deals.

Totally agree -- However, the downside in Sharia banking appears to be more limited -- That said, it appears that everybody and their brother was trying to circumvent the spirit of Sharia finance and invest in instruments that would violate the restrictions imposed by Sharia finance strictures!

[TRake]

Re: The Ground Gives Way - Eric Janszen

Metalman,

I definitely feel it and I see it. I agree with your a+b-c/x=-x(c-(a+b))/xx scenario. The smoke and mirrors is to build hope and confusion. We must look at the reality of the situation to see what is to come. It will not happen over night. It will happen over time. I see it as a sine wave where the government is applying different methods in order to dampen the swings. I am just looking for a total loss of control which is also what I do daily on my job. In my current occupation if you pass the knee of the curve then all is lost. I associate that knee with the inflation curve, but I have yet to see the point of no return for inflation. In the electricity industry, it doesn't happen immediately, but once the knee is past you only have a few seconds before it is lights out and at that point the computer takes over and goes into pre programmed survival mode. I see the markets and economy the same.

I somewhat disagreed with one of your earlier statements. If you could expand on your thoughts on conspiracy theories I would appreciate it. I don't think that all conspiracy theories are anti-intellectual. There is a truth out there that maybe few know. I think that most consider it a waste of time when they fail to find the truth.