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  • #76
    Re: The dollar, precious metals, and the 'other' invisible hand

    Originally posted by jk View Post
    i think the drop in pm prices has caused a big rush from folks who've been waiting for a pullback to buy physical. their concentrated demand cleaned out inventories, and the fabrication pipeline is too small to satisfy it. when gold [e.g.] crossed 800 on the way up, there was no jump in demand for physical. when it drops back to 800 from 1000, there are lots of buyers. but inventory was limited and the mints only punch so many coins per month. thus we get a jump in premia on physical.
    i think you've been visiting too many pm geek sites. what of crashes in other commodity prices that were simultaneous?

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    • #77
      Re: The dollar, precious metals, and the 'other' invisible hand

      Originally posted by metalman View Post
      i think you've been visiting too many pm geek sites. what of crashes in other commodity prices that were simultaneous?
      what of it? gold went down with a lot of other commodities. i thought the "mystery" to be explained was the shortage of physical. at least that was the question i was addressing in post #69.

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: The dollar, precious metals, and the 'other' invisible hand

        Originally posted by jk View Post
        what of it? gold went down with a lot of other commodities. i thought the "mystery" to be explained was the shortage of physical. at least that was the question i was addressing in post #69.
        are you friggin kidding me?

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: The dollar, precious metals, and the 'other' invisible hand

          Originally posted by metalman View Post
          ej's post in the thread you linked indeed addresses the issue of gold's descent along with that of other commodities. i didn't notice that it also discussed why physical is in short supply. did i miss that?

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: The dollar, precious metals, and the 'other' invisible hand

            Originally posted by jk View Post
            ej's post in the thread you linked indeed addresses the issue of gold's descent along with that of other commodities. i didn't notice that it also discussed why physical is in short supply. did i miss that?
            yeh, it's all about the funds with the $$$ paper betting on the ??? physical.

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            • #81
              Re: The dollar, precious metals, and the 'other' invisible hand

              Originally posted by metalman View Post
              yeh, it's all about the funds with the $$$ paper betting on the ??? physical.
              no, it's about the funds' selling driving down the price of commodities. it doesn't help poor lukester understand why he can't find those silver maple leaf and silver eagle coins he's desperately seeking.

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: The dollar, precious metals, and the 'other' invisible hand

                Originally posted by EJ View Post
                "What you have here is the footprints of the hedge funds exiting the commodities' markets in a mass stampede. Nothing more than that." Jon Nadler - Senior Analyst Kitco. Chimes In On The Precious Metals Conspiracy. ... As news of the planned intervention leaked out in March, funds not eager to trade against governments unwound their dollar hedge positions in commodities, including gold and silver
                _______________



                Jon Nadler proves Precious Metals manipulation (no really, he does…) By: C. Loeb - Posted Sept 5th 2008

                A recent posting by Ted Butler analyzing the sudden sale of an additional 27,606 COMEX silver contracts by 2 banks as of August 5th has created renewed interest in the possibility that COMEX silver is manipulated. Not surprising, given a $6.00 collapse in silver concomitant with the placing of this short side bet.

                Jon Nadler, Senior Analyst for Kitco Bullion recently posted an exhaustive rebuttal of the notion that precious metals market pricing is in anyway manipulated by the actions of large traders. The full text of Mr. Nadler’s thoughts can be found here:

                http://www.kitco.com/ind/nadler/aug292008B.html

                This Kitco posted analysis is a verbatim repeat of a congratulatory email sent to ‘Mish’ Shedlock of Sitka Capital from Nadler, after Shedlock made the remarkable discovery that a futures contract represents a long for every short, and therefore there can be no manipulation, no matter how concentrated a particular futures position may be. Verbatim, that is, except for the deletion of assertions of retail silver abundance Nadler made in the email version that were apparently too ridiculous to be posted twice, even by Nadler. Nadler’s email to Shedlock, with the portions included regarding how much retail silver is available and that was deleted from his Kitco posting can be found here:

                http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2008/08/jon-nadler-senior-analyst-kitco-chimes.html

                ...Mr. Nadler inadvertently and unknowingly confirms the mechanism by which these markets can be manipulated through the very process he describes as benign.

                His analysis attempts to refute all thoughts of manipulation with two arguments. The first is the very model of intellectual sophistication and asserts that if you disagree with him and instead believe that the sale of 165,000,000 ounces of silver (25% of world silver production) on the COMEX by 2 U.S. banks had a depressive effect on the price of silver then you:

                a. Are ignorant
                b. Are stupid
                c. Flunked out of freshman economics
                d. Are on drugs
                e. Are all of the above

                Since I have, at various times, met or been accused of all of the above criteria, I will stipulate that there is a possibility that he may be right on this one. Having said that, and as sophisticated and nuanced an analysis as this represents, I am not sure that this in and of itself disproves silver manipulation, so let’s get on with the second half of his analysis that actually proves the opposite of what he thinks it does.

                This second point is that there exist “Banks/Bullion Banks” that are “market makers”, who “passively” buy and sell gold and silver, apparently taking these positions out of a sense of altruistic civic “obligation” in response to other trader’s demands. In his view, the sudden appearance of a short position of 33,000 COMEX silver contracts is simply the result of these civically minded banks hedging on the COMEX an OTC position they purchased from funds “stampeding” out of the silver market. Therefore, he goes on, the appearance of this short position on the COMEX is nothing unusual, not manipulative, and if you disagree please pick from the list above the characteristic that describes you best.

                Nadler here intentionally, or out of a lack of knowledge, attributes to commodity traders the function of a market maker in a stock security. In stocks, the underwriting banks of a public offering do make a market in the stock, buying where there are no other buyers, and then selling out of any inventory of the stock to new buyers. However, in commodities, the concept doesn’t apply except in very thinly traded markets. In fact, the CFTC glossary of terms, notes this about market makers in commodities:

                Market Maker: In the futures industry, this term is sometimes loosely used to refer to a floor trader or local who, in speculating for his own account, provides a market for commercial users of the market. Occasionally a futures exchange will compensate a person with exchange trading privileges to take on the obligations of a market maker to enhance liquidity in a newly listed or lightly traded futures contract.

                In other words, there are no ‘Market Makers’ in gold and silver, except those trading for the speculative benefit of their own accounts, and they are certainly under no obligation to buy a massive amount of anything they don’t think they can make money on. After all, who does Nadler presume imposes this ‘obligation?’ Nadler is simply wrong when he tries to assign a market makers ‘obligation’ to bank trading activity that is purely speculative. This is not “passive” trading, but for profit trading, and as long as there is nothing manipulative or illegal about such activity, more power to them. So now let’s look at the activity Nadler describes, and consider whether it is as benign and passive as he contends.

                We’ll assume for a moment that the 33,000 short contracts held by 2 banks were put on as Nadler asserts, and do not represent a government coordinated intervention in the gold and silver market to support the dollar, or a government coordinated bailout of a failing or near defaulting commercial trader, which are both possibilities, if hard to prove. If Nadler is correct, then what happened is that these 2 banks bought 165,000,000 ounces of silver from panicking funds on the OTC, where all such transactions are private, invisible, essentially unregulated and then turned around and sold 165,000,000 ounces on the COMEX, a completely transparent market where any change in price is instantly and electronically communicated to millions of traders worldwide, regularly tripping buy or sell orders in the process. So, you have an invisible purchase, and a visible sale of a massive amount of silver. Based on Shedlock, Nadler and CFTC analysis, this represents a perfectly rational hedge, can’t be manipulative because as we all know, hedging is largely neutral since as Shedlock so insightfully notes, there is a long for every short in the hedge.

                However, at this point one begins to wonder if a hedge of this size – 33,000 contracts in silver and 86,000 contracts in gold – that has one leg in a visible market and one leg in an invisible OTC market is quite as benign as Shedlock/Nadler/Szabo/CFTC et al insist it is. We have been told for years that the fact that the COMEX silver market structure sports a larger commercial net short position than any other significant market is of no manipulative import because it represents a hedged position, long someplace else. The someplace else, according to Nadler, is the OTC market. If he is correct on this, then this type of ‘hedge’ is precisely the sort of position needed to manipulate the market while flying below the radar of a somnolent CFTC and some of the more modest intellects in the analytic world. I think the inherent potential for a COMEX/OTC spread for mischief can be demonstrated by considering the following possible sequence of events, which would be perfectly consistent with Nadler’s views on what happened during the latter part of July and the first two weeks of August, the published data, as well as the trading opportunities open to the banks holding the reported positions:


                1. Hedge funds begin selling silver and gold on the OTC market, and the 2 banks that show up on the Bank Participation Report begin buying.
                2. As the banks buy OTC they sell COMEX, and by August 5th they are long 165,000,000 ounces of silver on the OTC and short 165,000,000 ounces COMEX.
                3. The selling on the COMEX of such a massive amount of silver and gold contracts trips stop losses, further depressing the price of silver and gold, ultimately hitting a 40% decline in silver from recent highs.
                4. The banks at this point have a large profit on the short COMEX position and a large loss on the OTC long position.
                5. The banks now begin covering the short position on the COMEX. Not huge amounts that would cause the price to spike, but enough to have it rise over the next couple of weeks, if not dramatically.
                6. Since no one is ‘obligating’ them to do so, they don’t bother to sell any of their large under water OTC long position to match the liquidation of their COMEX short position. After all, with a retail shortage of silver and increasingly gold, long positions would seem to be pretty good bets.
                7. Periodically, the banks throw a few large sell orders out to slow or reverse building rallies. The thinly traded overnight markets work well for this because it doesn’t take a lot of volume to have an immediate effect on price. Kind of a 2 steps forward, 1 step back approach.
                8. Over the course of a few weeks, the banks cover some percentage of the COMEX short position, making money. Based on price action since mid July and the Bank Participation Report cutoff date, the banks would have a minimum basis for their 27,606 new short COMEX silver position of $17.65 and their 79,000 new short COMEX gold position of $925.00.
                9. Now, let’s assume that over the next week or two, the price goes up a bit and more COMEX short covering occurs. At some point, and barring another successful whap down of the price on the COMEX, whatever profitable short covering is possible on the COMEX would have occurred.


                So, how much profit might the banks have made on this trade so far? Well, the COT reports from July 15 (peak price) to August 26 give us a clue. During that period, the gross commercial short position in silver was reduced by 20,000 contracts and in gold by 109,000 short contracts. Based on the Bank Participation Report dated August 5th that showed 2 banks holding 25% of total open interest in silver and 3 banks holding 21% of total open interest in gold, I don’t think it unreasonable to assume the banks participated in this short covering proportionally. If so, as of Friday, August 29, the banks would have realized a minimum of $100,000,000 in silver and $228,000,000 in gold, with a lot of daylight still left between the spot price and their short basis, so the fun isn’t over yet.

                The banks are in a position, whenever they wish, to spike the PM price upwards by the simple mechanism of buying back additional portions of their remaining COMEX short position with the happy result that after having made money on their short leg, their long leg on the OTC becomes profitable. At some point they stop buying back on the COMEX, but at whatever point they stop, they have made money on a good chunk of the COMEX short, their OTC excess long is also now solidly profitable, and any remaining COMEX/OTC spread isn’t doing them any harm. And the wonderful thing about this money machine is that it is a RENEWABLE RESOURCE! As long as you can rely on the CFTC, Jon Nadler et al to keep telling people it’s all ok and there is a nickel left in the pockets of COMEX silver investors you can KEEP DOING IT! This manipulation does not involve beginning to short silver at $7.00 and hanging on with your teeth through a relentless price increase. It only involves the ability to put on gargantuan COMEX short positions from the safety of the Commercial category of traders without regulatory interference so that you can reap profits in induced sell-offs both on the short and long side of a hedge in 2 different markets – one that sets the price (COMEX) and one that reflects it (OTC). And we owe it all to Jon Nadler to explain to us the mechanics of this clever manipulation.

                What a wonderful world.

                - C. Loeb - Independent silver investor



                Last edited by Contemptuous; September 10, 2008, 02:39 PM.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: The dollar, precious metals, and the 'other' invisible hand

                  lukester, i believe that what loeb is describing is what jesse livermore would have called a "raid." be grateful. it changes nothing in the long run, while it offers us the opportunity of cheaper purchases for long term holdings.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: The dollar, precious metals, and the 'other' invisible hand

                    Originally posted by jk View Post
                    no, it's about the funds' selling driving down the price of commodities. it doesn't help poor lukester understand why he can't find those silver maple leaf and silver eagle coins he's desperately seeking.
                    luke oughta get a subscription and read all about it... It's called Selling

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: The dollar, precious metals, and the 'other' invisible hand

                      I'm a newbie here, and have read as much as I can find about the physical shortage of gold and silver in a price declining market and still don't get it.

                      All the commodities took a hard hit this summer. Sugar, Soybeans, Oil, Copper, gold and silver...

                      This morning; my coffee was just as sweet, my fried tofu was just as good (you have to acquire a taste ), I had no problem filling my truck with gas, I bought a copper pipe to do some plumbing work at a cheaper price than 4 months ago, and yet I still can't buy a silver or gold coin without paying a huge premium! After checking on craigslist there are plenty of offers to buy, and I couldn't find one offering to sell. Why is the gold and silver market acting differently than the rest of the commodities?

                      Hmmmmm, I'm not much for conspiracies, but I still haven't seen an explanation why the gold and silver markets should react any differently than the copper, oil, or other commodity markets.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: The dollar, precious metals, and the 'other' invisible hand

                        Originally posted by metalman View Post
                        luke oughta get a subscription and read all about it... It's called Selling
                        Luke is a subscriber, the front office just does not have it in his screen description.
                        Jim 69 y/o

                        "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

                        Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

                        Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: The dollar, precious metals, and the 'other' invisible hand

                          Originally posted by we_are_toast View Post
                          I'm a newbie here, and have read as much as I can find about the physical shortage of gold and silver in a price declining market and still don't get it.

                          All the commodities took a hard hit this summer. Sugar, Soybeans, Oil, Copper, gold and silver...

                          This morning; my coffee was just as sweet, my fried tofu was just as good (you have to acquire a taste ), I had no problem filling my truck with gas, I bought a copper pipe to do some plumbing work at a cheaper price than 4 months ago, and yet I still can't buy a silver or gold coin without paying a huge premium! After checking on craigslist there are plenty of offers to buy, and I couldn't find one offering to sell. Why is the gold and silver market acting differently than the rest of the commodities?

                          Hmmmmm, I'm not much for conspiracies, but I still haven't seen an explanation why the gold and silver markets should react any differently than the copper, oil, or other commodity markets.
                          copper is ubiquitous in the economy, that's why it's the metal with a ph.d. in economics. gas, sugar, soybeans are processed in enormous quanities as they are consumed in enormous quantities. retail precious metal production is tiny and the fabricators have limited capacities. right now buyers are metaphorically trying to drink a gallon a minute through a soda straw.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: The dollar, precious metals, and the 'other' invisible hand

                            EJ's evidence that hedge fund selling in the main driver of the short term gold price is quite convincing but he also predicts a sideways move for gold for the next 6-9 months. Does this mean that the inflationary consequences of the GSE bailout are already factored in to the gold price even with the massive sell-off by the hedge funds?

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: The dollar, precious metals, and the 'other' invisible hand

                              Out of curiosity this morning I "proofread" the two versions of the original NADLER email to Mish as posted on Mish's blog, and subsequently Nadler's "spruced up" version posted to the KITCO website (links to both in the post above). Some curious and revealing little "edits" emerged, which provide a nice "Rorschach Anxiety Test" of NADLER's unspoken concerns, which run like an uneasy undercurrent to his editorial on KITCO.

                              All mentions to silver delivery delays, silver bullion "abundance" and so forth have been artfully excised from the KITCO copy of this text. Now why would Mr. Nadler not simply re-post his email to MISH in it's entire original form? Well, evidently when you get into publicly posted articles, there are more stringent questions of "accountability". Why not acknowledge silver retail shortages - clearly they exist, no? Notice also the inserted effusive homage to the ever-vigilant "US - CFTC regulators keeping a keen eye on the market"?

                              Based upon the edits below, I view Nadler as an analyst more concerned with hewing to the KITCO proprieties than he is to posting inquiring articles. The KITCO article was not an essay inquiring vigorously and impartially into the topic - it was an "opinion piece" which remains symbiotically curled up within KITCO's own corporate interests and concerns in this matter. The hints abound therein, that NADLER is a "tame" analyst - at least in coverage of this story.

                              NADLER'S ORIGINAL EMAIL TO MISH READ:

                              The 'smoking gun report' is completely in error. What we may have here is a bullion analyst grasping at straws, and trying to incite the retail public to buy physical silver in the hopes that it will reverse the growing tide of money exiting the commodities complex. The so-called “shortages of physical silver” are simply localized coin blank inventory problems (the US Mint) or manufacturers not operating on a 'let's stock it, whether we think we can sell it or not' basis.

                              NADLER'S "SANITIZED" RE-POST TO KITCO THEN READS:

                              Such 'smoking weapons reports' are completely in error. Bullion 'analysts' are once again grasping at conspiracy straws and are trying to incite the retail public to buy physical silver in the hopes that they might reverse the growing tide of institutional money exiting the commodities complex. The theories that the gold and/or silver markets are somehow sinisterly manipulated – (especially as they comes at a time when US regulators are keeping a keen eye on everything in the stock and commodities markets for just such behaviors), is simply ludicrous and totally out of touch with market reality. Caveat lector.

                              [ COMMENT: Seems the "so-called shortages of physical silver ... are simply coin blank problems" mention has been quietly "dsappeared", as it was realised this might get KITCO into a sticky corner regarding claims of "abundant stocks", given KITCO is currently still notifying clients of zeroed invengtory and delivery delays? Are we to conclude Nadler had an "accountability epiphany" here? Therefore we observe a stern editor's pen drawn through this mention, and to put some "body" back into the paragraph, it has been substituted with an approval of the "vigilant regulators" instead. Very adroitly done, Jon! :rolleyes: ]

                              NADLER'S ORIGINAL EMAIL TO MISH READ:

                              While everyone is aware that physical demand can and did rise on the massive price break we've had since the highs of March, and those of July, such a reaction by the would-be buying public is quite normal. Surely, many would love to try to bring down a $20 (or higher) initial cost on their metal if they have a chance to buy more at $12 or $13 per ounce. As for silver supplies, there is quite an ample supply of the raw material from which to manufacture any small product. Let fabricators come back from their summer holidays and the situation might change soon.

                              There are no problems securing Austrian, Australian, or Canadian silver coins and (as of yesterday) and dealers feel confident that their current and pipeline US silver coin supplies will ensure the satisfaction of all of their commitments to their customers. The theory that the market is somehow sinisterly manipulated – (especially as it comes at a time when US regulators are keeping a keen eye on the goings-on in the commodities and financial markets for just such type of evidence), is simply ludicrous and totally out of touch with market reality. Caveat lector."

                              (COMMENT: The above two paragraphs are simply "disappeared" entirely and a different article close is substituted, introducing Mish. Reassurances about ironclad delivery commitments to customers was dropped. We must conclude Nadler decided that it "just did not sound quite right". Symbiosis with KITCO's own concerns in the matter, is addressed by "downplaying" the point to 100% invisibility? )

                              NADLER'S "SANITIZED" RE-POST TO KITCO THEN READS:

                              While Prof. Antal Fekete (who is seen on this site on occasion) has already and quite lucidly addressed the issues of naked shorts and related topics in some of his previous articles, one of the most compelling rebuttals written in recent memory comes - no, not from the CFTC (although it has also spoken quite unequivocally on the matter) but from Sitka Pacific Capital Management's Mike "Mish" Shedlock.

                              Yesterday, we relayed Mike's take on the psychology of conspiracy theories. It was as insightful as possible. We encourage you to revisit the article. Herewith, his latest post on the Great Non-Existent Gold and Silver Conspiracy. Long read, yes. Worth the read? Priceless. You have the long weekend to digest it. Then, send a missive to your favorite conspiracy advocate. Here goes Mike (please note that these are his observations and opinions on matters):
                              Last edited by Contemptuous; September 07, 2008, 04:01 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: The dollar, precious metals, and the 'other' invisible hand

                                Originally posted by Lukester View Post
                                Out of curiosity this morning I "proofread" the two versions of the original NADLER email to Mish as posted on Mish's blog, and subsequently Nadler's "spruced up" version posted to the KITCO website (links to both in the post above). Some curious and revealing little "edits" emerged, which provide a nice "Rorschach Anxiety Test" of NADLER's unspoken concerns, which run like an uneasy undercurrent to his editorial on KITCO.

                                ...

                                Nice job Lukester.

                                I also note that Mish has been quite silent in the whole area for many days. I also note that Mish's blog stats on Alexa continue to drop, both in reach and rank.
                                http://www.NowAndTheFuture.com

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