That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

[tombat1913]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

[quote=Andreuccio;42214]Interesting ideas, but I have some reservations. First, for the amounts of cash and prizes we're talking about I'm hesitant to use one of those diversionary safes. It'd be okay for keeping a few hundred, but I think there's too much chance for error when we're in the thousands.
[quote]

My take on this is that you're going to have to make a decision one way or another about where to keep your money. In the bank, in electrical boxes or in your anal cavity, it's got to be somewhere. The whole point I believe that EJ was trying to disseminate is that the banks aren't necessarily the safest bet, so you need to find some way to hedge against that so you can put food on your family while you're waiting for the FDIC to fix it. There is no absolutely safe bet here, but we may find out soon that keeping a couple ounces of gold in your change jar is safer than a Wells Fargo savings account.

[Andreuccio]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

With all this discussion of metal detectors sniffing out PM's, why not try a different tack?

Every light switch in your apartment must, by electrical code, by surrounded by a metal junction box. It would be a simple (although tedious) matter to distribute several thousand dollars in Pt or Au coins/rounds either within the box, or securely affixed behind the box (in case of unexpected electrical maintenance/repair).

If you're feeling especially paranoid, you can dislodge the junction boxes, and affix your hoard to the electrical conduit further up in the wallspace . . .

Other ideas include ziploc-protected storage within your hot water heater, HVAC, etc. . . .

The above precautions should provide sufficient ferrous-metal surrounding camouflage to protect against all but the pipe & wire stripping roving thugs that are soon to overwhelm the increasingly sparse outer suburbs . . .;)

For me, the problem is if I start spreading gold and cash around the house I'll forget where it all is. It'll be there for years. One other thing about that, (and the Pringles can idea): many safes offer some degree of fire protection. Some of the better ones are quite good against fires. In a fire, cash in a junction box is gone.

Also, aren't many junction boxes plastic?

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...CAR&lpage=none

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...ADJ&lpage=none



I think the idea of metal detectors is a bit of a red herring. If a professional comes in and has enough time, there really is nothing you can do. Unless you're Fort Knox, you're vulnerable. The best you can do is protect as well as you can against foreseeable threats with a reasonable amount of effort.

Hiding a safe won't protect against the pro with a metal detector, but it might keep the crackhead from finding the safe and beating on it with a sledge hammer, and then trashing your house when he can't get into the safe.

Each defensive item one chooses to add, (alarms, strong doors with good locks, surveillance cameras, a safe, hiding the safe, etc.) all only serve as deterrents.

[Andreuccio]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

never been burgled but several friends have. here's what they tell me. burglars want things they can use right away, that means cash. they do not want things they have to sell... they're not going to get much for it because things are more easily traced today. coins are virtually worthless to a burglar because you have to show id in the usa to sell coins to a dealer, and a fence can't move them.

burglars want to go into your house and out with the cash asap... don't make them hunt for it. leave a few hundred bucks and a nice watch in the top drawer of your bedroom dresser. the burglar with take it and be on his way. if he has to hunt around for something of value AND doesn't find it fast he's gonna get pissed off and start tearing the place up. had a friend come home to find fresh pile of human feces in the middle of his livingroom floor... true fact. turns out the cops told him that it's not uncommon... a big FU calling card from a robber for making him take the risk of arrest and jail for B&E for nothing. same goes for personal robberies. how many times you read the headline 'so and so was knocked over the head or shot for five bucks' well, he got hit because all he had was 5 bucks. carry enough cash so that if you get robbed the robber is rewarded for the risk. he'll leave you alone... it's worth it.

if you got a lot of money and are showy about it you're an idiot because when things get shitty you start to see kidnappings and car jackings and crimes like that. check google news for car jacking and you see it's getting more frequent. google trends shows car jacking shot up last year. lay low. keep a low profile.

I've been burgled once. They opened everything and dumped it all on the floor, but no real vandalism. They got most of my wife's jewelry, so I guess they weren't displeased.

I love the idea of leaving a couple of hundred and a watch as a gift for burglars to prevent damage. I'm definitely going to do that.

My question here had to do with EJ's suggestion in the original post to set aside a few months cash outside of the banking system. How do you do that safely? If someone really wants in and knows what they're doing, nothing you do will stop them. Laying low is certainly key, so they won't want in in the first place. But are there other precautions one should take?

In looking at safes, I've found that the lighter, less expensive ones can be gone through easily with basic tools in about 5 minutes. Even a crackhead can swing a sledgehammer. The heavier ones won't keep out a pro forever, but will keep out the crackheads. Problem is getting one in the house without drawing attention.

[phirang]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

I've been burgled once. They opened everything and dumped it all on the floor, but no real vandalism. They got most of my wife's jewelry, so I guess they weren't displeased.

I love the idea of leaving a couple of hundred and a watch as a gift for burglars to prevent damage. I'm definitely going to do that.

My question here had to do with EJ's suggestion in the original post to set aside a few months cash outside of the banking system. How do you do that safely? If someone really wants in and knows what they're doing, nothing you do will stop them. Laying low is certainly key, so they won't want in in the first place. But are there other precautions one should take?

In looking at safes, I've found that the lighter, less expensive ones can be gone through easily with basic tools in about 5 minutes. Even a crackhead can swing a sledgehammer. The heavier ones won't keep out a pro forever, but will keep out the crackheads. Problem is getting one in the house without drawing attention.

Why not just make counterfeit dollars to fool the robbers with?

[metalman]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

Why not just make counterfeit dollars to fool the robbers with?

don't forget to tell the feds that you don't intend to pass them but to use them to fool robbers

all ej is saying is don't count 100% on your bank or the advice of professional liars. that's also what these guys advise... We Prefer A More Secure Financial Institution

keep some cash someplace safe. look, if tshtf and you don't have cash, your situation is worse. if you are robbed and you don't have cash your situation is worse. if it gets stolen, who cares? beats the shit out of pissing off an invader... increasing your risk of violence. and as i've said before cash comes in handy for bribes... for stuff you may need. keep a firearm handy when you're in the house, but realize that guns are a huge liability... you have to keep careful track of them at all times. if you have kids, forget it.

don't be paranoid but don't be naive, either.

oh, and watch out for wierdos... :eek:

Man decapitates passenger aboard Greyhound bus in Manitoba

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

don't forget to tell the feds that you don't intend to pass them but to use them to fool robbers

all ej is saying is don't count 100% on your bank or the advice of professional liars. that's also what these guys advise... We Prefer A More Secure Financial Institution

keep some cash someplace safe. look, if tshtf and you don't have cash, your situation is worse. if you are robbed and you don't have cash your situation is worse. if it gets stolen, who cares? beats the shit out of pissing off an invader... increasing your risk of violence. and as i've said before cash comes in handy for bribes... for stuff you may need. keep a firearm handy when you're in the house, but realize that guns are a huge liability... you have to keep careful track of them at all times. if you have kids, forget it.

don't be paranoid but don't be naive, either.

oh, and watch out for wierdos... :eek:

Man decapitates passenger aboard Greyhound bus in Manitoba

Nice find, metalman, with regard to the cool guy who decapitated his seat mate. What needs to be done is this decapitator should be taken to the US Congress and all the security people called out and turn him loose with the instruction to ask each lawmaker, "Is the system fundamentally sound?" If the lawmaker replies, "Of course, vote for me in November," then this decapitator should do his deed over and over and over until only the final one standing wises up and says, "No, the frucking system is corrupt beyond repair."

[metalman]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

Nice find, metalman, with regard to the cool guy who decapitated his seat mate. What needs to be done is this decapitator should be taken to the US Congress and all the security people called out and turn him loose with the instruction to ask each lawmaker, "Is the system fundamentally sound?" If the lawmaker replies, "Of course, vote for me in November," then this decapitator should do his deed over and over and over until only the final one standing wises up and says, "No, the frucking system is corrupt beyond repair."

leave it to you jim to find a constructive way to employ a psychopath

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

leave it to you jim to find a constructive way to employ a psychopath

Think about it, metalman, what would it take to get the Congress and all lawmakers to become serious about what is going on in this country as it impacts the "average person"? As long as the lawmakers (foxes) are determining who's responsible for guarding the henhouse, they ain't going to change the system. I hate to be negative beyond reasonableness, but nothing will EVER change unless some external force is brought to bear that forces a revised or new system--examples: a decapitator is turned loose in a locked up Congress, bird flu is released on the entire group, anthrax is scattered on them all, a neurtron bomb explodes in Washington, DC, and Nashville, Austin, Santa Fe, Montgomery, Des Moines, etc. x 45 more.

One thing that will not change the system is a voting public.

[sadsack]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

For me, the problem is if I start spreading gold and cash around the house I'll forget where it all is. It'll be there for years. One other thing about that, (and the Pringles can idea): many safes offer some degree of fire protection. Some of the better ones are quite good against fires. In a fire, cash in a junction box is gone.

Also, aren't many junction boxes plastic?

You could get some larger diameter silica or ceramic sheathing (some resist temperatures of up to 2300 degrees) and stuff a few tightly rolled "baller wads of cash" in them:

http://www.mcmaster.com

search under part number 87675K25

[Andreuccio]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

You could get some larger diameter silica or ceramic sheathing (some resist temperatures of up to 2300 degrees) and stuff a few tightly rolled "baller wads of cash" in them:

http://www.mcmaster.com

search under part number 87675K25

I like it. A very MacGyver type of solution. Put one of these inside a burglary safe. How would you seal off the ends, though? The internal temp shouldn't exceed about 350 degrees, since paper will ignite at about 450, and if it's open on both ends you haven't really solved the problem.

Actually, looking at it, I'm not sure it will work. The problem isn't just keeping flames out. You need to keep the temp of the cash below 350. Therefore, it needs to be airtight. In a typical house fire, temps reach upwards of 1200, and can get as high as 1700.

Maybe an airtight, unbreakable ceramic container, if such a thing is made.

BTW, I want to apologize to EJ and Fred. I didn't mean to hijack the thread. Sorry.

[Chris Coles]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

Think about it, metalman, what would it take to get the Congress and all lawmakers to become serious about what is going on in this country as it impacts the "average person"? As long as the lawmakers (foxes) are determining who's responsible for guarding the henhouse, they ain't going to change the system. I hate to be negative beyond reasonableness, but nothing will EVER change unless some external force is brought to bear that forces a revised or new system--examples: a decapitator is turned loose in a locked up Congress, bird flu is released on the entire group, anthrax is scattered on them all, a neurtron bomb explodes in Washington, DC, and Nashville, Austin, Santa Fe, Montgomery, Des Moines, etc. x 45 more.

One thing that will not change the system is a voting public.

With the greatest of respects Jim, you forget recent history. The one thing that made the difference in Eastern Europe and brought the Cold War to an end, (for example), was a combination of the spoken and written word. The strongest weapon is debate, good old fashioned open debate. The more we tell it as it is, out loud, the more they have to listen. If you instead take the revolutionary road, along the lines you suggest, all you do is give them a chance to call you names and you dilute your argument.

Take EJ and his setting up iTulip. Just look at how many people are now in his debate, world wide. You may find it hard to believe, but I am sure that they are taking a long look at the debate started by EJ and I am equally sure that they must take it on board.

Words are by far the strongest force in all human society. We must use them wisely.

[c1ue]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

If you are concerned only about the crackhead thieves, the 1000 ozs of silver blocks are plenty good enough.

Just use them as a base for a bookshelf; 95% of (non professional) people won't have any clue what they are, and a significant portion of the rest won't be able to lift them.

As for not worrying about the professionals - well - they wouldn't bother if the situation wasn't really bad, or your stash really worth it.

After all, the weakest link is probably the store that sold you the coins or bullion.

Hope the owner is someone you trust and/or doesn't have low paid temporary clerk types.

As for the spoken and written word...

I thought it was $20 oil, collective farming, and Star Wars that were the straws that broke the Commies' camel's back?

After all, the protests in the 50's and 60's in Eastern Europe were crushed by tanks.

What stopped the Soviets from going in again? The $100B debt accumulated in buying food after a series of both bad harvests and general food farm productivity growth, and the cold hard fact that more would not be forthcoming unless 'democracy' and 'free trade' were allowed to prevail.

The really sad part about today is that for all of Russia's natural resource wealth, educated population, and strong technology in many areas, so many of the things that the Russian people need/want must be imported as domestic production - already inadequate - was not only not bolstered by 'Democracy' and 'Free Trade', but in fact was ignored in favor of good old fashioned land (and underlying resource) grabs.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

With the greatest of respects Jim, you forget recent history. The one thing that made the difference in Eastern Europe and brought the Cold War to an end, (for example), was a combination of the spoken and written word. The strongest weapon is debate, good old fashioned open debate. The more we tell it as it is, out loud, the more they have to listen. If you instead take the revolutionary road, along the lines you suggest, all you do is give them a chance to call you names and you dilute your argument.

Take EJ and his setting up iTulip. Just look at how many people are now in his debate, world wide. You may find it hard to believe, but I am sure that they are taking a long look at the debate started by EJ and I am equally sure that they must take it on board.

Words are by far the strongest force in all human society. We must use them wisely.

Chris, I personally am too old to engage in open anarchy, or covert for that matter, but my opinion remains that anything short of violence from some source whether natural or war-like is not going to change our system. I am not against the masses being educated as to what is going on, but EJ's and others' voices or writings are not reaching the masses. When one begins to hear people who have the medias' ear, and when the media gets the balls to promulgate the message, then perhaps some rational evolution of a better system will evolve.

Can you imagine the two current presidential candidates pounding the table saying all the bullshit that exists and has existed with the financial system, social security, medicare, the cost of healthcare, the people that have no health coverage , the cost of higher education, etc. HAS to be addressed. I guess it is possible, though improbable, that I live to see a hundred, but were I to do just that, I think short of something severe and severely disruptive the US political system will continue right down its current path to ruination.

Some of you, hopefully most, will get to see how it works out.

[sadsack]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

Can you imagine the two current presidential candidates pounding the table saying all the bullshit that exists and has existed with the financial system, social security, medicare, the cost of healthcare, the people that have no health coverage , the cost of higher education, etc. HAS to be addressed. I guess it is possible, though improbable, that I live to see a hundred, but were I to do just that, I think short of something severe and severely disruptive the US political system will continue right down its current path to ruination.

Some of you, hopefully most, will get to see how it works out.

Echoing your last sentence, any profound change, or change of any real meaning, takes generations (at least two) to supplant the dying paradigms of the previous regime.

Look at how long it took to forget the lessons of the Depression - twoscore (40 years) until "Tricky Dick" dissolved Bretton Woods.

Now, nearly twoscore years after that, the rabid chickens are coming home to roost. It will be another twoscore years until a more viable solution is appreciated in the "hearts and minds" of our American society. . . and it is my fervent hope that these future generations do not neglect Santayana's warning.

[raja]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

The really sad part about today is that for all of Russia's natural resource wealth, educated population, and strong technology in many areas, so many of the things that the Russian people need/want must be imported as domestic production - already inadequate - was not only not bolstered by 'Democracy' and 'Free Trade', but in fact was ignored in favor of good old fashioned land (and underlying resource) grabs.

Speaking of the FSU, my Ukrainian wife is from a town of 50,000 in southern Ukraine. I was amazed to hear that her parents never leave their house without someone being there, for fear of burglary. If they both have to be away for some reason, they hire someone trusted to stay at the house. They also have 5 nasty dogs, chained at strategic points around the property.

She says that the burglars are quite sophisticated. They will even gas watchdogs, and have many other techniques to do their dirty work.

After Independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, the banks failed and her parents lost all their savings. Her father now has underground storage containing all types of foods and survival supplies. I understand that the reason most people survived the post-Soviet meltdown was due to the fact that everyone, even city dwellers, had a garden plot in the country or relatives who did some form of farming. My wife is amazed at how unprepared Americans are for a "black day".

As the world financially equalizes, and the US becomes poorer, it is possible that we will face something like what exists in the Ukraine today . . . . :eek: