That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

[tombat1913]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

Andreuccio,
Just a thought: Buy gold coins, cut them into eigths, water soluble paint them different colors and throw them in a jar with a bunch of marbles. It will look like game pieces to anybody else.

or

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pringles-Can-Div...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Diversion-Safe-W...QQcmdZViewItem

[LargoWinch]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

Has anybody else though about these issues? Any ideas for solutions, or basis for decisions?

Depending on the amount you have invested physical, a few coins in a peanut butter jar would do. The fake pringles cans are also good, but you can do that yourself easily without buying them while enjoying the product...

For a larger investment, you need something more secure. Imagine if the brigands are actullay hungry after stealing your tv... Or that your wife "forgets" about the $12K peanut butter jar and dump it with the trash...

As such, I would suggest you to invest in a good safe (fire/theft protection - don't pay for water protection as you can use "ziploc" bag or similar if needed) and hide it on the 2nd floor of your place. Yeah its heavy, but hey, that is part of the protection (see below).

Anyway, here is my trick: 1000oz Silver bars! Simple huh? All you need is about $10K-$15K of silver to make the whole thing like 500lbs+! Note that each 1000oz bar is roughly equal to 70lbs. No need to bolt it on the floor (although always better). This way, your gold and other small items are safe as well.

With enough physical silver and provided you bought a good safe, the bad guys would need a crane to steal it. Unfortunately for them, that type of operation usually tends to draw attention...

Make sure the safe is also hidden and be creative: fake desk, corner of a wall, aquarium holder etc.

One last thing regarding safes at home: DO NOT have it delivered. Pick it up yourself and pay cash for it at the store.

On top of that, an alarm system and/or big dog would increase the overall security of your assets.

[Andreuccio]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

Depending on the amount you have invested physical, a few coins in a peanut butter jar would do. The fake pringles cans are also good, but you can do that yourself easily without buying them while enjoying the product...

For a larger investment, you need something more secure. Imagine if the brigands are actullay hungry after stealing your tv... Or that your wife "forgets" about the $12K peanut butter jar and dump it with the trash...

As such, I would suggest you to invest in a good safe (fire/theft protection - don't pay for water protection as you can use "ziploc" bag or similar if needed) and hide it on the 2nd floor of your place. Yeah its heavy, but hey, that is part of the protection (see below).

Anyway, here is my trick: 1000oz Silver bars! Simple huh? All you need is about $10K-$15K of silver to make the whole thing like 500lbs+! Note that each 1000oz bar is roughly equal to 70lbs. No need to bolt it on the floor (although always better). This way, your gold and other small items are safe as well.

With enough physical silver and provided you bought a good safe, the bad guys would need a crane to steal it. Unfortunately for them, that type of operation usually tends to draw attention...

Make sure the safe is also hidden and be creative: fake desk, corner of a wall, aquarium holder etc.

One last thing regarding safes at home: DO NOT have it delivered. Pick it up yourself and pay cash for it at the store.

On top of that, an alarm system and/or big dog would increase the overall security of your assets.

I like the idea of hiding it. I'll have to think about how to do that, given space limitations.

As to weight, one of the safe guys I talked to had similar suggestions. Either rolls of quarters or actual weights in the bottom of the safe can really beef it up. (He didn't mention buying 15K worth of silver.)

The bigger issue with weight is the initial weight of the safe. Safes in the manageable range (up to about 300lbs) really aren't much more than glorified lockboxes. The steel on the sides is usually 12 gauge, which can be cut through or gone through with a sledge hammer pretty easily. To get something really sturdy, you need a lot more steel, which adds considerably to the weight. I haven't done much moving for many years, but I'd bet trying to move 700 lbs up stairs with a couple of friends is asking for trouble.

But now we're back to another point you made: DO NOT have it delivered.

[Andreuccio]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

Andreuccio,
Just a thought: Buy gold coins, cut them into eigths, water soluble paint them different colors and throw them in a jar with a bunch of marbles. It will look like game pieces to anybody else.

or

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pringles-Can-Div...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Diversion-Safe-W...QQcmdZViewItem

Interesting ideas, but I have some reservations. First, for the amounts of cash and prizes we're talking about I'm hesitant to use one of those diversionary safes. It'd be okay for keeping a few hundred, but I think there's too much chance for error when we're in the thousands.

As to altering coins, I'm very wary. One of the advantages of buying something like Eagles or Krugerrands is that they're pretty liquid now (you can sell them to any coin dealer for a small spread under current cost), and in the event of a breakdown they're easily recognizable to many, making them (hopefully) liquid in that situation as well. Start cutting them up and they'll be much more of a hassle to unload whatever the circumstances.

[c1ue]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

The problem with safes is a $50 metal detector will find them in about 5 minutes.

So creativity in hiding them only protects you from the stupid criminals.

The ones who are coming after you because they know you have a stock of PMs...

[Andreuccio]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

The problem with safes is a $50 metal detector will find them in about 5 minutes.

So creativity in hiding them only protects you from the stupid criminals.

The ones who are coming after you because they know you have a stock of PMs...

Yeah, nothing's fool proof. If someone actually knows you have PM's, you need much stronger security. You're probably in quite a bit of physical danger, as well, especially in the event of system breakdown.

Just have to weigh out all these issues.

[LargoWinch]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

Yup, c1ue, you are so right and I never thought of that: metal detector. Do you have a second job or what?

Anyway, I guess one has to assess the risk of gold being stolen at home vs. "stolen"... sorry confiscated by one's government.

I think the later (confiscation) is very small and the former quite a bit more hassle to execute (safe at home), but more likely. My point is that gold would need to be much much higher than $2,500/oz to be seized by your government in my view. More like the fiat bonar valued at the price of Bounce (or less) and gold at like $25,000/oz.

I would recommend to spread things around. I mean fake peanut butter jar, physical bullion in a safe at the bank, GLD in a 401(k) or wearing it like a rapper :cool: etc.

This way if gold skyrocket and SHTF then you can retrieve some and that should be plenty to make you rich. If S does not HTF then you can access all your gold and you can resell it at a later time.

[sadsack]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

With all this discussion of metal detectors sniffing out PM's, why not try a different tack?

Every light switch in your apartment must, by electrical code, by surrounded by a metal junction box. It would be a simple (although tedious) matter to distribute several thousand dollars in Pt or Au coins/rounds either within the box, or securely affixed behind the box (in case of unexpected electrical maintenance/repair).

If you're feeling especially paranoid, you can dislodge the junction boxes, and affix your hoard to the electrical conduit further up in the wallspace . . .

Other ideas include ziploc-protected storage within your hot water heater, HVAC, etc. . . .

The above precautions should provide sufficient ferrous-metal surrounding camouflage to protect against all but the pipe & wire stripping roving thugs that are soon to overwhelm the increasingly sparse outer suburbs . . .;)

[metalman]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

With all this discussion of metal detectors sniffing out PM's, why not try a different tack?

Every light switch in your apartment must, by electrical code, by surrounded by a metal junction box. It would be a simple (although tedious) matter to distribute several thousand dollars in Pt or Au coins/rounds either within the box, or securely affixed behind the box (in case of unexpected electrical maintenance/repair).

If you're feeling especially paranoid, you can dislodge the junction boxes, and affix your hoard to the electrical conduit further up in the wallspace . . .

Other ideas include ziploc-protected storage within your hot water heater, HVAC, etc. . . .

The above precautions should provide sufficient ferrous-metal surrounding camouflage to protect against all but the pipe & wire stripping roving thugs that are soon to overwhelm the increasingly sparse outer suburbs . . .;)

a casual visitor to the tulip might ask, wtf are these guys on about? hiding gold in the walls? cash in potato chip cans? nuts! but if the last time that guest came by was 2006 to read forecasts of crashing home prices and bank failures... well :eek:

[BrianL]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

I'm new around here, so I'm still at the :eek: phase at the talk of squirreling away several months of cash/gold buried in the back yard. I understand the comparision to talk of the housing market crashing in the past, but this seems like an entirely different magnitude of problem.

If we hit the point where the goverment as going house to house and confiscating wealth (or society breaks down across the US and we have wide spread chaos) what is you end game in storing wealth at home? Escape to a desert island? Or are we at the point of 'all I need to do is survive longer than my neighbors and I'll it through to a recovery'?

Or is the real lesson here that the next bubble will be in safes, hedged by sledgehammers and molotovs?

[Chris Coles]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

Surely the better answer is to create a stash in a friendly country that has a sound banking system. What nearly everyone has forgotten is the banking mess is not spread throughout the planet, it is localised to the Anglo Saxon nations. There are a lot of countries that have stable governments with stable banking systems and sound economies. No, I am not advocating telling fibs to the local tax authorities. Simply that if the SHTF you have options. Again, yes, at the point of collapse you might not have easy access, but you would have the certainty that it would be there in all circumstances.

[*T*]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

A friend of mine is a jeweler who recently got burgled. They took cash, aftershave, crap like that, and ignored the hundreds of pounds worth of sheet gold lying on the living room table. I think this is fairly typical of what to expect from your typical burglar.

Just sayin'...

[Andreuccio]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

I'm new around here, so I'm still at the :eek: phase at the talk of squirreling away several months of cash/gold buried in the back yard. I understand the comparision to talk of the housing market crashing in the past, but this seems like an entirely different magnitude of problem.

If we hit the point where the goverment as going house to house and confiscating wealth (or society breaks down across the US and we have wide spread chaos) what is you end game in storing wealth at home? Escape to a desert island? Or are we at the point of 'all I need to do is survive longer than my neighbors and I'll it through to a recovery'?

Or is the real lesson here that the next bubble will be in safes, hedged by sledgehammers and molotovs?

Between lurking and actually being a member, I've been here a little under two years. That's not much in geological time, but one thing I've noticed during that period is that EJ has an uncanny ability to be right. So when he says "I recommend you put aside at least a few month's cash", (which I assume he means outside of the banking system, since the article is about the fragility of that system), to my mind it's prudent to listen and start taking steps to do it. If I'm going to do it, better do it right. No sense setting aside tens of thousands of dollars to avoid the next depression only to have it ripped off by a crackhead who likes Pringles.

It might be that nothing will happen, and that all these preparations will be for nothing. Even a year ago I probably wouldn't have bothered. But a year ago EJ might not have made the suggestion, either. One thing's for sure: you can lose a lot of money betting against the guy.

[metalman]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

Between lurking and actually being a member, I've been here a little under two years. That's not much in geological time, but one thing I've noticed during that period is that EJ has an uncanny ability to be right. So when he says "I recommend you put aside at least a few month's cash", (which I assume he means outside of the banking system, since the article is about the fragility of that system), to my mind it's prudent to listen and start taking steps to do it. If I'm going to do it, better do it right. No sense setting aside tens of thousands of dollars to avoid the next depression only to have it ripped off by a crackhead who likes Pringles.

It might be that nothing will happen, and that all these preparations will be for nothing. Even a year ago I probably wouldn't have bothered. But a year ago EJ might not have made the suggestion, either. One thing's for sure: you can lose a lot of money betting against the guy.

never been burgled but several friends have. here's what they tell me. burglars want things they can use right away, that means cash. they do not want things they have to sell... they're not going to get much for it because things are more easily traced today. coins are virtually worthless to a burglar because you have to show id in the usa to sell coins to a dealer, and a fence can't move them.

burglars want to go into your house and out with the cash asap... don't make them hunt for it. leave a few hundred bucks and a nice watch in the top drawer of your bedroom dresser. the burglar with take it and be on his way. if he has to hunt around for something of value AND doesn't find it fast he's gonna get pissed off and start tearing the place up. had a friend come home to find fresh pile of human feces in the middle of his livingroom floor... true fact. turns out the cops told him that it's not uncommon... a big FU calling card from a robber for making him take the risk of arrest and jail for B&E for nothing. same goes for personal robberies. how many times you read the headline 'so and so was knocked over the head or shot for five bucks' well, he got hit because all he had was 5 bucks. carry enough cash so that if you get robbed the robber is rewarded for the risk. he'll leave you alone... it's worth it.

if you got a lot of money and are showy about it you're an idiot because when things get shitty you start to see kidnappings and car jackings and crimes like that. check google news for car jacking and you see it's getting more frequent. google trends shows car jacking shot up last year. lay low. keep a low profile.

[c1ue]

Re: That dreaded phrase: ''The system is fundamentally sound''

Keep in mind when TSHTF, there are several types of reactions:

1) EEk what to do what to do?!?!? running around in circles. Then eventually figure out that it is time to buy food
2) Oh crap I thought this would never happen, but let's do some quick and dirty mitigation (first ones in the stores after the event buying supplies)
3) No problem I am prepared (but have no gun) - one who understood what was coming but didn't think it through at all
4) No problem, I am prepared and I have a gun - like above, but did think it through 90%
5) No problem, I watched all the preparers and have them in the sights of my gang. This way I will be prepared, spend little money, and have no risk if TSdoesn'tHTF.

I'm actually not entirely kidding.

And no, I'm not a burglar. But I have used metal detectors.

Note that metal detectors don't just show presence, but also relative mass. Your house wires and other crap won't help against these more modern detectors.

Plus if I WERE a level 5 doomster, I'd be scanning the local recorder's offices for places with recent structural upgrades...those heavy safes often require additional structural work and this does legally need to be reported. Also records from safe-selling companies are nice...