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Housing Bubble Correction Update: Here comes the jobs crash (Part I)

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  • Re: Housing Bubble Correction Update: Here IS the jobs crash (Part I)

    Originally posted by FRED View Post
    I

    If we are right about inflation then you should be able to exchange inflation hedges for inflated goods prices, but there is no net gain, only an avoidance of losses that might otherwise be experienced if deflating assets are held instead.
    This is one of my issues with Ka-Poom. If it becomes obvious that inflation hedges are required, then those assets should eventually become inflated and not just reflect the exact offset that you would expect from a theoretical approach. Investor sentiment and movement of hot money might move those assets to highly inflated prices - at least that is what market history tells me during highly inflationary times. I am not talking about speculating, but acknowledging that the more likely outcome is that these inflation hedges will more than reflect the offset. Comments?

    The other issue I have is this tossing in of the towel I keep hearing - i.e. you said we are all poorer in this country whether inflation comes or a continued deflation happens. If the US dollar decreases less than other currencies or even if it does not I would expect commodity based currencies to provide a far greater level of protection for similar reasons - they should not only offset inflation but there should be capital flight to those currencies.

    Sure capital controls may prevent you from doing this later if one continues to reside in the US, however there will still be plenty of equities you can buy for companies which reside wholly outside of the US or at least derive their income predominantly from outside the US, but trade on US exchanges.

    Moreover, why do some many US citizens think they are just stuck? For gawds sake we are all educated. You can get a job in Canada and just move there and protect yourself, that is assuming you buy into my argument.

    Yes, I know it is more difficult to attain a job and will be increasingly difficult, but if you are here at iTulip, chances are you are a lot smarter than others, :-)
    --ST (aka steveaustin2006)

    Comment


    • Re: Housing Bubble Correction Update: Here comes the jobs crash (Part I)

      [quote=Charles Mackay;59833]jtabeb, mercerbear, others
      Might that 70% dollar devaluation happen in 2009? That prior devaluation happened in FDR's first term. Will it happen in FDR II's first term (Obama)?

      Devaluation against what? in 1933 gold was money, it was recognized and fixed against the dollar. Gold is no longer money, no one imagines it to be a midium of exchange, it's an asset class which is less appealing than oil.

      What do you plan to devalue the dollar against? A vital economic commodity such as oil, wheat etc.. an nonessential relic such as gold, what's the point. How about your trading partner's currencies, loonie, euro, rmb. Do you think they'll like it or allow it to happen?

      The government can simply spend money on projects and try to employ people layed off in the private sector. The banks can not stop the crash they can only mitigate the speed of the descend

      Comment


      • Re: Housing Bubble Correction Update: Here comes the jobs crash (Part I)

        Originally posted by Charles Mackay View Post
        jtabeb, mercerbear, others

        While the usual metrics have worked in the past (cap rates etc.) I don't think they'll work in this "greater depression". How can you measure something in a currency that will be massively devalued overnight?

        Do you really think we are going to get a green light signal that the FED is re-inflating fast enough to put us back into inflation, allowing us all to move to the other side of the boat and protect ourselves? Did they warn the citizens in 1933 before the 70% devaluation? No!

        Might that 70% dollar devaluation happen in 2009? That prior devaluation happened in FDR's first term. Will it happen in FDR II's first term (Obama)? FDR was inaugurated into office on March 4, 1933 during a banking panic. That is when he uttered the famous phrase "we have nothing to fear but fear itself". He then signed Executive Order 6102 confiscating American's gold on April 5, 1933 just one month after taking office! The penalty for non compliance was punishable by a fine up to $10,000 (which is $166,000 in 2008 dollars!) and up to 10 years in prison!

        The hot money currently sloshing around the world trying to protect itself from the inflation/deflation whipsaw will have to be devalued overnight in order to wash out the collapsing debt laden financial system.

        At the bottom of the depression in the 30's you could buy a typical US house for $3500 and after the dollar devaluation, 100 oz of gold bought that house. In 1980 during the wave IV assets/gold revaluation you could buy a typical US house for 100 oz of gold. Some time in the next few years you'll be able to buy a nice house for 100 oz of gold.

        So, I suggest you accumulate 100 oz of gold and keep it overseas in a depository like GoldMoney and then buy that nice house for cash when the median existing house price in the US (published monthly) reaches 100 ounces. I have published my houses/gold chart many times here on iTulip but if it can't be found I'll post it again upon request.
        Let's say that the national median home price falls back to pre-bubble 1995 price of $110,500. Are you saying you expect gold to rise to $1,150 to equal 100 oz.?

        Or do you think median home prices will not fall much from the current $122,000 due to inflation that will take gold to $1,220 to work out to 100 oz?

        Or do you think nominal median home prices may actually be inflated to, say, $500,000 to help deflate mortgage debt against the collateral, resulting in a gold price of $3037 ($500,000/$122,000 = 4.09 * $750)

        Just a few scenarios to consider to get to 100 oz of gold for a home in the future
        Ed.

        Comment


        • Re: Housing Bubble Correction Update: Here IS the jobs crash (Part I)

          Originally posted by mercerbear View Post
          Thank you for the replies. I do not think I made myself clear initially. I am not a housing speculator. I know that game is dead and I was too young to play it myself.

          My situation is this:

          I have enough cash saved to buy an average house in which I will personally reside in TN. I know two things.

          (1) Housing prices and the prices of materials required to build houses are currently falling. I assume this has something to do with Ka. This bodes well for my ability to afford a home with my dollars that are accruing 3.3% in an etrade savings account.

          (2) At some point Poom will occur and it will change the ballgame. At this point, housing prices and the cost of materials required to build a house will begin climbing as the dollars in my etrade account devalue in an inflationary situation, be it modest or hyper. At this point, I am able to afford less house for my saved money.

          Given the above conditions, it seems to me that there is an ideal time during Ka and before Poom for a person who has saved dollars for the purpose of buying a house to go ahead and buy the house.

          What I was hoping to get some perspective on is when and how I should buy my house given these conditions. New or existing? Pay in cash or take a mortgage?? etc. Any ideas in general on how I can maximize the money I have saved to get a nice place to live in.

          Haha, unfortunately that is as articulately as I am able to explain my position and question. I realize there is a distinct possibility that I am missing the big picture and embarassing myself but I'll risk cyber shame for the opportunity to post this rather important personal question on this forum where I put great stock in the knowledge and intelligence of other community members.

          Thanks again to all.
          For what it's worth, I'm in approximately the same boat -- but not able to pay cash outright. I'm on the patented GRG55 "wait" plan. I have enough savings earmarked for a home to pay approximately 1/3 of the average price in my area, with a portion of those savings in inflation hedges.

          If we're headed into a deep recession or depression, then that's not going to be good for employment or house prices. If we get inflation, then maybe the inflation hedges overshoot on the up side; maybe they don't but they retain their purchasing power. If we get deflation, then a portion of my savings don't do so well, but probably there are even more people out of work, which should be even worse for home prices. As long as I'm not one of those who is out of a job (which, thankfully, is something I can predict with about a 2-year time horizon), then I imagine I'll do best by waiting.

          I agree with the other posters who say that buying an existing distressed property is more efficient than building your own. That said, I have my heart set upon building my own.

          Comment


          • Re: Housing Bubble Correction Update: Here comes the jobs crash (Part I)

            Originally posted by FRED View Post
            Let's say that the national median home price falls back to pre-bubble 1995 price of $110,500. Are you saying you expect gold to rise to $1,150 to equal 100 oz.?

            Or do you think median home prices will not fall much from the current $122,000 due to inflation that will take gold to $1,220 to work out to 100 oz?

            Or do you think nominal median home prices may actually be inflated to, say, $500,000 to help deflate mortgage debt against the collateral, resulting in a gold price of $3037 ($500,000/$122,000 = 4.09 * $750)

            Just a few scenarios to consider to get to 100 oz of gold for a home in the future
            Yes, any of those scenarios could happen and I realize that someone contemplating buying a house would like to base their decision upon which scenario is more likely, but I'm not sure it's knowable. Obviously we'd all go out and buy 5 homes if it were going to be 500K and 5K gold. Although in a forced devaluation mortgages could also be re-calibrated by law which has been done in other hyper inflating countries so even that may be risky. I've personally decided that I'm not going to gamble on making money from a deflating mortgage and will just buy a house again at around 100 oz.

            BTW, the "median existing" US house price in August was $201,900 and the preliminary figure for September is $190,600 subject to revision (which it always is) so I assume your $122,000 figure above was a hypothetical? Maybe you meant $222,000?

            Here is the link to the National Association of Realtors figures that I use.

            http://www.realtor.org/wps/wcm/conne...a5f356cdbb95a4

            Comment


            • Re: Housing Bubble Correction Update: Here comes the jobs crash (Part I)

              Originally posted by Charles Mackay View Post
              Yes, any of those scenarios could happen and I realize that someone contemplating buying a house would like to base their decision upon which scenario is more likely, but I'm not sure it's knowable. Obviously we'd all go out and buy 5 homes if it were going to be 500K and 5K gold. Although in a forced devaluation mortgages could also be re-calibrated by law which has been done in other hyper inflating countries so even that may be risky. I've personally decided that I'm not going to gamble on making money from a deflating mortgage and will just buy a house again at around 100 oz.

              BTW, the "median existing" US house price in August was $201,900 and the preliminary figure for September is $190,600 subject to revision (which it always is) so I assume your $122,000 figure above was a hypothetical? Maybe you meant $222,000?

              Here is the link to the National Association of Realtors figures that I use.

              http://www.realtor.org/wps/wcm/conne...a5f356cdbb95a4
              Typo. Meant $222,000 not $122,000. That's means we need $2,220 gold to buy that median home today!
              Ed.

              Comment


              • Re: Housing Bubble Correction Update: Here comes the jobs crash (Part I)

                Originally posted by FRED View Post
                Typo. Meant $222,000 not $122,000. That's means we need $2,220 gold to buy that median home today!
                Right! and that could happen in a very short period of time couldn't it? The 1980 gold crisis was actually even more severe than the 30's. The median existing house was $63,000 when gold was priced at $875 for a house/gold ratio of 72 oz. But, you'd have to be pretty quick on your feet to get a real estate purchase contract signed and your gold sold on that day! ;) ...so 100 oz is a more realistic figure for what was doable.

                It makes perfect sense to me that houses were even cheaper priced in gold in 1980 than 1933 because 1971 was an even greater gold crisis than the FDR revaluation. A Bretton Woods failure leading to world fiat with no anchor.... now that's a real crisis. And it's just playing out it's final chapter right now.

                Comment


                • Re: Housing Bubble Correction Update: Here comes the jobs crash (Part I)

                  Originally posted by Charles Mackay View Post
                  Right! and that could happen in a very short period of time couldn't it? The 1980 gold crisis was actually even more severe than the 30's. The median existing house was $63,000 when gold was priced at $875 for a house/gold ratio of 72 oz. But, you'd have to be pretty quick on your feet to get a real estate purchase contract signed and your gold sold on that day! ;) ...so 100 oz is a more realistic figure for what was doable.

                  It makes perfect sense to me that houses were even cheaper priced in gold in 1980 than 1933 because 1971 was an even greater gold crisis than the FDR revaluation. A Bretton Woods failure leading to world fiat with no anchor.... now that's a real crisis. And it's just playing out it's final chapter right now.
                  I think it's also worth noting that it was illegal to own gold in 1933, so the hypothetical '100 oz. house' wouldn't have been a practical trade. Laws, taxes and currency controls in our near future could also present obstacles, even if the gold/housing ratio again falls into the sweet spot.

                  Jimmy

                  Comment


                  • Re: Housing Bubble Correction Update: Here comes the jobs crash (Part I)

                    Personally, I will stick to the statement made decades ago now by Robert Beckman in his book, The Downwave; "Cash is King in the Downwave".
                    http://www.antiqbook.co.uk/boox/lbw/019585.shtml

                    I must add that it would seem to be improbable to conclude that the bottom for house prices will bounce. Once reached, the bottom will be there for several years as everyone wakes up to the end of the FIRE economy.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Housing Bubble Correction Update: Here comes the jobs crash (Part I)

                      What I love about this 100oz. gold-home purchase is that I've actually used a similar philosophy to buy apartments in advance. $600.00 2br. units, not exactly luxury; but in hip, urban locations.

                      I bought a bunch of units that have very strong positive cash flow and am financing around 65%. I then bought a corresponding amount of silver bullion to pay off the mortgages in a few years.

                      The best part was that I was having serious "investor's block" about buying and my frickin banker, Mr. Cynical, told me to buy the bullion and go have a drink! Mr. Cynical is turning every other commercial banker in my town into a gold and silver bug! ha.ha.ha. These cats know how deep the rabbit hole is!

                      Comment


                      • Re: Housing Bubble Correction Update: Here comes the jobs crash (Part I)

                        Originally posted by jimmygu3 View Post
                        I think it's also worth noting that it was illegal to own gold in 1933, so the hypothetical '100 oz. house' wouldn't have been a practical trade. Laws, taxes and currency controls in our near future could also present obstacles, even if the gold/housing ratio again falls into the sweet spot.

                        Jimmy
                        The timing is different, but silver or platinum also work.
                        http://www.NowAndTheFuture.com

                        Comment


                        • Re: Housing Bubble Correction Update: Here comes the jobs crash (Part I)

                          Originally posted by jimmygu3 View Post
                          I think it's also worth noting that it was illegal to own gold in 1933, so the hypothetical '100 oz. house' wouldn't have been a practical trade. Laws, taxes and currency controls in our near future could also present obstacles, even if the gold/housing ratio again falls into the sweet spot.

                          Jimmy
                          Jimmy, if you have your gold at GoldMoney or in a swiss bank safebox, or a Canadian bank safebox no obstacle is presented.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Housing Bubble Correction Update: Here comes the jobs crash (Part I)

                            Originally posted by Charles Mackay View Post
                            Jimmy, if you have your gold at GoldMoney or in a swiss bank safebox, or a Canadian bank safebox no obstacle is presented.
                            That takes care of the confiscation threat (which only happened in '33 because of the gold standard), but the tax issue still exists. Holding assets outside the US does not exempt citizens from reporting income. If you buy 100 oz of gold today at $725 and sell in the future when gold is $1450 and a house is $145k, you are taxed 28% for your gain on the gold sale: $20,300. If the prices align at $2170 and $217k, your taxes due are double that. What if they raise the collectibles tax rate to 50%? 100%?

                            Jimmy

                            Comment


                            • Re: Housing Bubble Correction Update: Here comes the jobs crash (Part I)

                              Originally posted by Charles Mackay View Post
                              Jimmy, if you have your gold at GoldMoney or in a swiss bank safebox, or a Canadian bank safebox no obstacle is presented.
                              As a Canadian myself, I am not sure that Canada is be much better than the US.

                              I understand that the US wrote the book regarding gold confiscation within a free market economy, but the current "collaboration" of CBs during this crisis does not make me feel "good and fuzzy" to say the least!

                              I fear that all G7/G8 members could outlaw gold at the same time as part of their coordinated efforts...

                              Comment


                              • Re: Housing Bubble Correction Update: Here comes the jobs crash (Part I)

                                Forecasters: Economy worse in '09, better in '10
                                Monday February 23, 7:19 am ET
                                By Jeannine Aversa, AP Economics Writer

                                Forecasters see deeper downturn, higher unemployment this year, but hopeful for 2010 recovery

                                WASHINGTON (AP) -- Brace yourself: The recession is projected to worsen this year. The country stands to lose a sizable chunk of economic activity in 2009 as consumers at home and abroad retrench in the face of persistent economic troubles. And the U.S. unemployment rate -- now at 7.6 percent, the highest in more than 16 years -- is expected hit a peak of 9 percent this year.

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