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You're not going to believe this: Inflation/deflation debate still alive?

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  • Re: You're not going to believe this: Inflation/deflation debate still alive?

    Originally posted by jk View Post
    disjointed 'flation = disparate sectors of the economy asynchronously blowing up and collapsing. disjointed 'flation is of questionable stability, with the possibility of devolving into either a pan-inflationary or a pan-deflationary scenario. disjointed 'flation may also show a predominance of either inflationary or deflationary symptoms, without fully devolving into either extreme scenario. thus, the debates.

    a key to examining this model is understanding the role of the financial system - the f.i.r.e. economy. the ongoing collapse of fire institutions raises questions about the mechanisms by which money will enter the real, production-consumption economy. see bill gross' recent piece at http://www.pimco.com/LeftNav/Feature...+July+2008.htm for his analysis, consistent with itulip analysis, that the mechanism must be federal spending.

    edit: how does disjointed flation differ from a normal economy? after all, in any normal economy there will be some sectors growing and some declining. i suppose the difference is one of degree: the extreme nature of both the expansions in some sectors [e.g. tmt in the '90's, housing in the '00's], and the collapse in others [tmt in the early '00's, housing and housing-finance now].
    EJ writes in:
    As aways, you make good points. Thank you for noting Gross' recent article.

    When I first started to look into the inflation versus deflation issue ten years ago, within a short time it became clear to me that the US was deflation prone due to over-indebtedness but also inflation prone because its currency was vulnerable to depreciation for all of the classical reasons, not least massive fiscal and trade imbalances, and foreign indebtedness.

    I developed Ka-Poom Theory after concluding that in the event the US government by following post Great Depression anti-deflation monetary orthodoxy was setting the US up for a future inflation spiral kicked off by currency depreciation to defend against debt deflation. Later, as the government eventually found ways to compensate for dysfunction in the endogenous credit markets
    to prevent a self reinforcing cycle of credit contraction at some point after the inevitable debt crisis appeared, every effort to close the "break in the chain of payments" was to result in further dollar depreciation; all this even before foreign capital flows reverse. If and when that happens the greater inflationary process I've put forward in Ka-Poom Theory remains in the realm of possibility.

    Next week I will dissect a strong inflation versus deflation analysis by Lehman economist Aaron Gurwitz published last week. It is not only thought provoking but lays out a compelling contradictory theory, that the US risks a deflation spiral long term. It's worth noting that the debate has reached the point that investment bank economists feel compelled to provide analysis of the question for their clients who are demanding that investment decisions be made with these factors in mind.

    The error that most analysts make who are not familiar with the theory and the history is that the processes involved need to be conceptualized not in terms of levels of debt, or money, or credit, although levels are indicative, but rather relative money flows, changes in flows as measured in rates of change in levels, and interactions among processes that affect flows, such that processes that we have long experienced as homeostatic and stable can suddenly become unstable and chaotic. Inflation and deflation have to be understood as processes that can become suddenly unstable and self-reinforcing after a breaking point is reached, with monetary intervention either only marginally mitigating or even accelerating the process.

    Of all the many articles and books I have read on the topic none is better than Irving Fisher's 1933 "Debt-Deflation Theory of Great Depressions" and I strongly recommend it to anyone with an interest in the subject.

    Four conclusions of his which have stood the test of time that I believe are indisputable: 1) major depressions, whether inflationary or deflationary, follow from the malady of over-indebtedness and that all other factors, such as mal-investment, are secondary or result from the condition of over-indebtedness; 2) there is no such thing as a business cycle. There are processes that repeat, but not on their own, leading to; 3) markets do not heal themselves as they do not tend toward equilibrium. The myth of the self-healing market is pervasive, even among many of our esteemed members, despite fact that there exists not one shred of historical evidence to support it; and 4) deflations are always preventable, although the cure may be worse than the disease for many members of society, while inflations are not always preventable.

    In spite of clear and ancient wisdom so well verified by 75 years of history, I frequently encounter all manner of confused analysis of the issue. I read about "inflation scares" and "deflation scares" and other creative and often
    tautological inventions to explain the impact of intervention by governments in the debt deflation process, as if the inflation expectations of market participants were a product of their own expectations.

    The Fed has succeeded in preventing deflation and will continue to do so at considerable cost to the purchasing power of the US dollar.
    The Bernanke Fed is so keenly aware of the risks of a deflation spiral, given the degree of over-indebtedness of the US household, financial, and business sectors, that I imagine a white knuckle ride up the yield curve, Ka-Poomwise, with the Fed funds rate closely following inflation by no less than two points but never exceeding it for fear of tipping the system into a deflationary spiral before debt levels have been sufficiently reduced by the inflation process.
    Ed.

    Comment


    • Re: You're not going to believe this: Inflation/deflation debate still alive?

      Originally posted by Lukester View Post
      ...

      Latin America Watch:

      July 9 - Bloomberg (Jens Erik Gould): "Mexican inflation accelerated to the fastest in almost four years last month on higher costs for food and housing... Consumer prices climbed 5.26% in June from a year earlier..."...
      [ATTACH]428[/ATTACH]
      5.5% on our direct comparison CPI scale is troubling. Our housing cost increasings are due to steel, cement and related materials cost hikes, and that for the period 2003-6 housing costs were increasing below CPI, that had to change.

      I do fully expect that for next Aug-Oct period, the Banxico daily auction increases from the actually 32 million USD to somewhere between 40 to 50 million (yep, Banxico buying more pesos)... That is really not too much, given that the daily trade between US and Mexico is somewhere around 1 billion USD, and Banxico reserves around 83 billion USD, real dumping of USD would mean in my opinion daily auctions on the 100s of million of USD.
      sigpic
      Attention: Electronics Engineer Learning Economics.

      Comment


      • Re: You're not going to believe this: Inflation/deflation debate still alive?

        Originally posted by ocelotl View Post
        5.5% on our direct comparison CPI scale is troubling. Our housing cost increasings are due to steel, cement and related materials cost hikes, and that for the period 2003-6 housing costs were increasing below CPI, that had to change.

        I do fully expect that for next Aug-Oct period, the Banxico daily auction increases from the actually 32 million USD to somewhere between 40 to 50 million (yep, Banxico buying more pesos)... That is really not too much, given that the daily trade between US and Mexico is somewhere around 1 billion USD, and Banxico reserves around 83 billion USD, real dumping of USD would mean in my opinion daily auctions on the 100s of million of USD.
        :eek: My first correct call on what banxico is going to do... and before Bloomberg's note...

        Mexico's Peso Holds Near Five-Year High on Interest-Rate Spread
        By Valerie Rota
        July 14 (Bloomberg) -- Mexico's peso held near a five-year high on mounting speculation the difference between Mexican and U.S. benchmark lending rates will continue to widen, drawing investors to the nation's higher-yielding securities.
        The peso has risen 5.8 percent this year as two interest- rate increases by Banco de Mexico since October have swelled the spread between Mexican and U.S. lending rates to 5.75 percentage points, the biggest since September 2005. Mexican central bankers will raise the key rate by a quarter-percentage point to 8 percent when they meet on July 18, according to the median estimate of 20 analysts surveyed by Bloomberg.


        Continued...


        Also...

        Mexican Bonds Rise on Bets Central Bank to Keep Rates Unchanged

        15 de julio de 2008

        El Banco de México anuncia que durante el periodo del 1 de agosto al 31 de octubre de 2008 subastará diariamente 40 millones de dólares. Dicho monto se determinó de acuerdo con lo dispuesto en las Circulares-Telefax 18/2003 Bis y Bis 1, como se ilustra en los siguientes cuadros:

        Official Banxico press comunicate. (in spanish)
        sigpic
        Attention: Electronics Engineer Learning Economics.

        Comment


        • Re: You're not going to believe this: Inflation/deflation debate still alive?

          Ocelotl -

          Major trading partners to the US (like Mexico) would probably not be the first ones to enter into large scale USD dumping? However what you refer to, the internal inflation rate, would seem to be the "pressure point" for all US major trade partners to sharply reduce exposure to the USD. As global inflation rates rise with the fundamental costs pushing up the oil price, the single largest method of effective relief which oil exporter nations may find they still have, to keep at least some control on inflation seems most likely the decoupling from the USD and letting their currencies strengthen - especially the oil producers. The pricing power of their oil will of course only strengthen going forward, which provides a natural momentum for their currencies to remain stronger and/or rise vs. the USD, so this tactic seems to have a high probability of being widely used.

          Does not spell good things coming for anyone living and working in the USD zone.

          What will be fascinating to watch is how the world begins to evolve away from global outsourcing of manufacturing, as the price of long distance transport moves up enough to finally negate the cost benefits of having Americas goods manufactured in Vietnam, for example. It's hard to imagine a world of "nuclear powered commercial cargo ships" for example, no? And without that, in a world of $300 per barrel oil (3 - 4 years away?) how much cost advantage, (let alone strategic advantage for the entire world) is there to keep shipping the vast bulk of "low cost" manufactured goods from Asia to America? This may translate into surprisingly strong growth in factory floor industry for Central America and Mexico, to take over a quantity of manufacturing from SE Asia for the North American market. The world could look surprisingly different in just another 7-10 years. But of course, with Peak Cheap Oil, that is just a statement of the obvious.

          Comment


          • Re: You're not going to believe this: Inflation/deflation debate still alive?

            Originally posted by Lukester View Post
            Ocelotl -

            Major trading partners to the US (like Mexico) would probably not be the first ones to enter into large scale USD dumping? However what you refer to, the internal inflation rate, would seem to be the "pressure point" for all US major trade partners to sharply reduce exposure to the USD. As global inflation rates rise with the fundamental costs pushing up the oil price, the single largest method of effective relief which oil exporter nations may find they still have, to keep at least some control on inflation seems most likely the decoupling from the USD and letting their currencies strengthen - especially the oil producers. The pricing power of their oil will of course only strengthen going forward, which provides a natural momentum for their currencies to remain stronger and/or rise vs. the USD, so this tactic seems to have a high probability of being widely used.

            Does not spell good things coming for anyone living and working in the USD zone.

            What will be fascinating to watch is how the world begins to evolve away from global outsourcing of manufacturing, as the price of long distance transport moves up enough to finally negate the cost benefits of having Americas goods manufactured in Vietnam, for example. It's hard to imagine a world of "nuclear powered commercial cargo ships" for example, no? And without that, in a world of $300 per barrel oil (3 - 4 years away?) how much cost advantage, (let alone strategic advantage for the entire world) is there to keep shipping the vast bulk of "low cost" manufactured goods from Asia to America? This may translate into surprisingly strong growth in factory floor industry for Central America and Mexico, to take over a quantity of manufacturing from SE Asia for the North American market. The world could look surprisingly different in just another 7-10 years. But of course, with Peak Cheap Oil, that is just a statement of the obvious.

            A similar situation of demand dissapareance has already taken place before, at the bust of the dotcom bubble. I was working in maquila in a plant here in Mexico City that exported all its production to US. Suddenly, due to the bust, the demand dissapeared. What was an assembly plant of 1,000+ workers at the end of the year 2000 party dwindled to about 250-300 at the time I was laid off in august 2001. By 2005 that plant was absorbed in a company fussion.

            Nowadays many major manufacturers are pricing the advantages of having a NAFTA covered plant in Northern Mexico to export to US, but, as you are pointing, case is not only shipping costs, that are going to get prohibitive in the next decade, but also demand destruction by the degrading economy of oil importers.

            We that live in oil exporting countries may have a slight advantage, while extraction keeps supporting internal demand, and those of us that work in companies based on internal demand or are in a self sustaining economical niche have also a bit of extra time, but at the end, the oil shock is going to hit hard all of us, and if we are not prepared, it is going to get very ugly very quickly.

            I really hope a decoupling of dollar and coupling on internal resources and commodities happen in the foreseable future. We mexicans face a critical situation, and we have to remember that a coupling to US and UK currency in the monetary law of 1905 was one of the factors that precipitated 1910 Mexican Revolution, and that French intervention on Spain by the Bonapartes resulted in the 1808 Spanish Revolution and 1810-25 dismantling of Spanish Empire. Hope the approach we are in the process of implementing this time stands enough to avoid a disaster in the coming years.
            sigpic
            Attention: Electronics Engineer Learning Economics.

            Comment


            • Re: You're not going to believe this: Inflation/deflation debate still alive?

              Rick Ackerman is ever busier sidling over towards the dollar inflation camp without actually conceding he's "sidling over". Reminds me of the way a crab walks - SIDEWAYS. :mad:

              CURRENT QUOTE:

              So what do we think of the bearish price action yesterday in precious metals? We see it as a buying opportunity, and we will therefore continue to update our forecasts with correction targets that can be bottom-fished with relatively little risk. In the meantime, anyone who thinks the selling in precious metals is going to continue for much longer obviously does not understand the implications of a Federal budget deficit soon to leap above $10 trillion and presumably out of control. The spinmeisters may be able to distract CNBC viewers from the meaning of this, and from the inevitable destruction of the dollar that it must cause. However, our foreign lenders will surely recognize it as a warning of a catastrophe in the offing. Although falling oil prices could temporarily take some pressure off the dollar by causing the trade deficit to shrink, there should be no doubt that the moist ruinous phase of the currency’s bear market lies ahead.

              All this is delivered with a "blow by blow" account of how his pivot point analysis nailed the bottom in the silver price swoon to within "one tick". Geez, with all this avid enthusiasm for the "bottom fishing" purchases of precious metals, combined with categorical assurances of the death throes for the US dollar, how the heck does Rick Ackerman compose himself for an about face with further arguments for generalised deflation? Mr. Ackerman, the above quotes in the context of your endlessly defended generalised deflation thesis are GOBBLEDEGOOK! Either the dollar is gaining against a broad index of goods and service prices, or it is losing ground. Please come on over here and explain to the iTulip people how you shoe-horn the "inevitable destruction of the dollar" which you now actually promote, with the generalized deflation you've spent years arguing for?

              Does the name "Argentina" not provide Ackerman with a hint of the gargantuan conceit he is indulging here in not conceding that a foreign repudiation of the dollar (he's mentioning explicitly now!) hardly provides the backdrop for the USD to appreciate against a single damn thing, here in the US??

              http://news.silverseek.com/RickAckerman/1216879200.php

              Comment


              • Re: You're not going to believe this: Inflation/deflation debate still alive?

                Originally posted by Lukester View Post
                Rick Ackerman is ever busier sidling over towards the dollar inflation camp without actually conceding he's "sidling over". Reminds me of the way a crab walks - SIDEWAYS. :mad:

                CURRENT QUOTE:

                So what do we think of the bearish price action yesterday in precious metals? We see it as a buying opportunity, and we will therefore continue to update our forecasts with correction targets that can be bottom-fished with relatively little risk. In the meantime, anyone who thinks the selling in precious metals is going to continue for much longer obviously does not understand the implications of a Federal budget deficit soon to leap above $10 trillion and presumably out of control. The spinmeisters may be able to distract CNBC viewers from the meaning of this, and from the inevitable destruction of the dollar that it must cause. However, our foreign lenders will surely recognize it as a warning of a catastrophe in the offing. Although falling oil prices could temporarily take some pressure off the dollar by causing the trade deficit to shrink, there should be no doubt that the moist ruinous phase of the currency’s bear market lies ahead.

                All this is delivered with a "blow by blow" account of how his pivot point analysis nailed the bottom in the silver price swoon to within "one tick". Geez, with all this avid enthusiasm for the "bottom fishing" purchases of precious metals, combined with categorical assurances of the death throes for the US dollar, how the heck does Rick Ackerman compose himself for an about face with further arguments for generalised deflation? Mr. Ackerman, the above quotes in the context of your endlessly defended generalised deflation thesis are GOBBLEDEGOOK! Either the dollar is gaining against a broad index of goods and service prices, or it is losing ground. Please come on over here and explain to the iTulip people how you shoe-horn the "inevitable destruction of the dollar" which you now actually promote, with the generalized deflation you've spent years arguing for?

                Does the name "Argentina" not provide Ackerman with a hint of the gargantuan conceit he is indulging here in not conceding that a foreign repudiation of the dollar (he's mentioning explicitly now!) hardly provides the backdrop for the USD to appreciate against a single damn thing, here in the US??

                http://news.silverseek.com/RickAckerman/1216879200.php
                rick's and mush's kids wade up to the deep end where the big ideas like the fire economy fit... go "oooh! scary!" and dog paddle away.

                we try to give them swimming lessons, teach them crawl and butterfly strokes, but they'd rather hop and splash around in 3 ft of water with the same little toys... evil fiat money! dishonest fractional reserve banking! gold is money! the fire economy is in the deep end of the pool. they will NEVER understand what going on and going to happen. ever. give up.

                Comment


                • Re: You're not going to believe this: Inflation/deflation debate still alive?

                  I thought you guys might be interested in listening to even more debate about inflation/deflation. The usual suspects are involved. Mish begins by wanting to change the definition of deflation. Sigh...

                  http://commoditywatch.podbean.com/

                  Comment


                  • Re: You're not going to believe this: Inflation/deflation debate still alive?

                    Originally posted by Chris View Post
                    I thought you guys might be interested in listening to even more debate about inflation/deflation. The usual suspects are involved. Mish begins by wanting to change the definition of deflation. Sigh...

                    http://commoditywatch.podbean.com/
                    as i said, give up. they'll never figure it out, and anyway they're selling funds and other financial products, s even if they did get it they'd have to spin it to fit the facts to the product features or no more paycheck.

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