Embrace "The Bitch"

[WDCRob]

Re: Embrace "The Bitch"

The other thing that's happening here that Obama hasn't effectively addressed is that Hillary's accurately reading the economic mood of the country and has done a better job of moving into the vaccum left by Edwards than Obama has.

If the SHTF between now and the Dem Convention, or things just continue to deteriorate, her messages about winning in 'gritty places like Ohio' while Obama racks up votes among the 'latte drinkers' is going to make his job even tougher. Not only does it make him look a little more out of touch, it gives her ammo that she's the one who can win Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania in the general.

Again, I'd put my money on Obama at even odds, but I really don't like his strategy.

Off topic: Even in rounds 1-7 Ali slipped Foreman's punches and picked him apart with counters. The Rope a Dope was mostly PR - he gave better than he got through most of the fight. It only looked like he wasn't fighting.

Maybe there's a lesson there?

[bill]

Re: Embrace "The Bitch"

" of course not all of us are blessed with the skill to turn $1k into $100k in cattle futures in 6 months time,

They are both skilled investors,,slick William gives a speech and turns it into 700K.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/artic...ATION/15653289

March 7, 2008
The spring before his wife began her White House campaign, former President Bill Clinton earned $700,000 for his foundation by selling stock that he had been given from an Internet search company that was co-founded by a convicted felon and backed by the Chinese government, public records show.


Mr. Clinton had gotten the nonpublicly traded stock from Accoona Corp. back in 2004 as a gift for giving a speech at a company event. He landed the windfall by selling the 200,000 shares to an undisclosed buyer in May 2006, commanding $3.50 a share at a time when the company was reporting millions of dollars of losses, according to interviews.


A spokesman for the William J. Clinton Foundation declined to identify the buyer....................

[Verrocchio]

Re: Embrace "The Bitch"

Off topic: Even in rounds 1-7 Ali slipped Foreman's punches and picked him apart with counters. The Rope a Dope was mostly PR - he gave better than he got through most of the fight. It only looked like he wasn't fighting.

Maybe there's a lesson there?

Yes, there is a lesson in that classic championship fight and Obama's corner men would do well to analyze that fight before they start boasting about their Rope-a-Dope strategy. As it is, it is only serving as a convenient story to cover inaction and ineptitude.

Ali did lay on the ropes, but by leaning backward, outside the ring, he caused Foreman to punch far out from his power zone. He easily anticipated Foreman's punches and then leaned a bit further out or twisted to the left or right so that Foreman seldom landed a solid hit. When Foreman did make contact, they were mostly ineffectual strikes.

If we extend this analogy a bit further, then Obama's Rope-a-Dope must employ similarly sophisticated tactics to neutralize and absorb most of what the "B" can throw at him.

[jtabeb]

Re: Embrace "The Bitch"

But things in U.S. economy are now spinning out of control so fast, maybe we need a "tough cookie" who is willing to knock heads together and take no prisioners, if that is what it takes to fix things.

Yeah! Let's get Putin to come over here and rule this country too!!:eek:

(be careful of the Knight on a white horse, It's how nice folks like Hitler and Mussolini come to power. It should be the most worrisome thing to all this election cycle)

P.S. I think McCain will win, there can be no positive resolution of the internal democratic rift. 50% of democrats are going to be pissed off after the nominee is announced. This will pave the way for a republican victory this November. Speaking of a knight on a white horse...

[World Traveler]

Re: Embrace "The Bitch"

I think Democrats will pull together no matter who wins the nomination.

They may be pisssed at end of the nomination process, but they REALLY dislike the current Republican agenda - Iraq, crumbs for the little guy, wiretapping, Don Siegelman, Karl Rove's tactics, etc., etc.

Most polls show Independents veering Democrat, but election is really too early to call.

Who wins? Not clear at this time.

[DemonD]

Re: Embrace "The Bitch"

I read the original article as an advisory for the clinton campaign - not an endorsement as it states. I think this, indeed, is exactly what she has done - she's saying I'm the one that's going to point a nuke at Putin, while obama is going to give chocolate and flowers and poetry.

My vote is for Obama. My rationale is simple. I don't care whether someone is likable or not, I want the best person for the job. Ms. Clinton owes the most favors to people in power and has more hooks in her back than any politician I can remember. Including Bush. Bush's problem is that his fishhooks are connected to some of the absolute morally reprehensible people in modern politics - and that's saying something. When push comes to shove, Wall Street owns her. All the rhetoric directed against Mr. Obama is just that- rhetoric. One of the things that is good to do is to actually look at the record of these people. Obama ran for senate on a specific platform of being against the war. If you look at his website and political stances, they are well thought out and very much in line with my beliefs.

As far as the rope-a-dope, and Obama being able to stand up to attacks from the Repubs, I think this is a great learning experience from him. I think he will come up off the ropes -we'll see what happens in PA. But I think it's plain to see that Obama will be a much better ambassador leader than either Clinton or McCain, and in that way he is much more like Bill Clinton.

I have a different perspective on Obama, which gives me even more respect and admiration and trust in the man. He is running a campaign based on mass-seduction techniques. He believes he is the best man for the job, he knows that a crybaby bitch of a president will not endear us to the rest of the world or the military, and she will be at the mercy of Wall Street who will control her more than any other president. He will be much better as a consensus builder, and while special interests will get their due, the people will be better off - and in this way his presidency will echo bill clinton's. Obama, like Clinton and JFK and many other world leaders before, know that the best way to win an election is, indeed, to win it as a popularity contest, where charm and looks and being cool is more important than specific policies.

If someone would like to debate this point, I would be happy to. While politics is a more popular topic of conversation nowadays, your average voter is nowhere near as informed as those of us who read and discuss it ad nauseum. One small impression will give the casual voter a reason to or not to vote for a candidate, and Obama knows this.

Hillary is not just a bitch. She is disconnected from reality with unsound policies, and very little actual experience. Obama correctly pointed out that her mortgage freeze plan is the worst thing to do in a credit contraction. This shows to me he understands "the law of unintended consequences" - whereas she is clueless. And, sleeping next to a governor and president for 20 years does not make you an expert. Especially when you probably haven't actually slept next to that guy, probably ever. Give me a constitutional law professor who grew up middle class and has been on city councils over a rich know-it-all who has 8 years of posh senatorial experience and has a record of following the path others tell her to follow.

Oh yes, did we know Obama was a senior lecturer at the U of Chicago Law school?
http://www.law.uchicago.edu/faculty/obama
Not active but plenty of articles confirm he indeed did teach there (not as a tenured professor but as a lecturer).

The really funny thing is is that Obama has stood up for a lot of principles I hold dear, things that Ron Paul would even be proud of, but he never gets credit for it. The reason for this is, I believe, that he knows that talking about this stuff is boring for the average ADD 3 second attention span TV watching voter, and that further he knows the intelligent voter, of which he has been CLEANING THE FLOOR WITH HILLARY'S FAKE SMILE, will go out and research on their own his record. Which is pretty freaking stellar from everything I've seen.

I saw some redneck hick guy in ohio who was voting for hillary because he heard obama didn't know the pledge of allegiance and the star spangled banner and he was a muslim. It is this voter he is trying to reach, the ignorant peon voter - and talking about constitutional law, gitmo, mortgage foreclosures, and NAFTA will not get this man's vote. Hillary was able to get his vote on the basis of her husband's economic policies giving this gentlemen a decent living in the 1990's.

So, while I would agree with the article - that hillary should embrace the bitch - I think it would be better for the democratic party if people gave her a bitchslap and told her to get out of the way of history and let Barack start campaigning in earnest against McCain.

[Ant]

Re: Embrace "The Bitch"

I'm surprised to see as much support on this board for Ms. Clinton as there appears to be (I understand that the original post was not an endorsement.)

I'm short of time tonight, and DemonD has already posted much of what I would normally add, so I'll just add the following bullet points:

1) If you're honestly thinking of supporting Clinton for the nomination, please do yourself a favor and go read her mortgage plan. It should be anathema to any regular reader here.

2) Actual strategic aptitude and skill are every bit as important as "toughness." Bill Clinton had these skills, but I am not convinced that Hillary does. To the contrary, her campaign itself stands as a testament to poor planning. She has been outworked, outhustled and outmaneuvered by the the Obama organization and its 50-state strategy at most turns.

3) Actual principles matter too. Clinton has sold hers to Wall Street backers at every opportunity. Yes, all politicians are beholden to special interests to some extent, but Obama is much less so than any other candidate in the field. It would be a joy to have a candidate who was not Wall Street's bitch for once.

4) It's hard to debate an attribute as poorly defined as relative toughness, but I would remark on something that I don't see discussed frequently - - Obama is widely regarded by personal security professionals to be placing himself in mortal danger every day in a way that the other candidates for president simply aren't. Yes, he has SS protection, but frequently they aren't even able to complete full sweeps before events, given the massive turnout he draws.

Remember that no less a tough guy that Gen. Colin Powell is rumored to have declined running for the Republican nomination (which he probably could have won) in 2000 due to family concerns for his personal safety. My point is that Obama is exhibiting a level of personal toughness that gives me confidence that he is up to the job.

----

Obviously, I support Obama for president. My primary personal motivation is actually pretty simple. There's been either a Clinton or a Bush in the White House EVERY YEAR SINCE 1980 (including Poppy's VP years.) If Hillary wins, what's next, Jeb or one of the other Bush kids in 2016? Who knows, maybe we can keep trading the most important job in the world between these two weird families for a century.

Enough. I'm ready for a change.

/end rant

[GRG55]

Re: Embrace "The Bitch"

...Enough. I'm ready for a change.

/end rant

The rant from Ant.

Metalman...you got competition now :cool:

[Ant]

Re: Embrace "The Bitch"

My point is I respect opinions of the Freds, EJ, and Josh Marshall and consider them carefully.

One difference, however, is that editorial on ITulip has proven over time to have predictive value.

I like Josh Marshall too - he's an excellent journalist and has done great things with the TPM site.

However, that doesn't mean he has any particular judgement when it comes to other matters. For example, if memory serves, he thought invading Iraq was a good idea in '03.

If he were giving financial advice, I might consider his opinion to be a contrarian indicator.

I voted in Texas Democratic primary and caucuses on Tuesday. I was amazed at the turnout at our local precint in conservative, Republican, northwest Harris county (just outside Houston).

How many of them were Dittoheads following Rush Limbaugh's instructions to vote for Clinton? :0 (see WSJ link below.)

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/0...ons-texas-win/

[World Traveler]

Re: Embrace "The Bitch"

Re: Dittoheads, I don't know. This I can say, they would have to be very dedicated dittoheads to attend the caucuses where 1/3 of Texas primary votes were determined.

The caucus I attended was supposed to start at 7:15. So the large crowd (about 1000) was waiting outside the polling place at 7:10. It was a cold night for Houston, high 40's. There was no place to sit. We had to stand around until 8:30 till regular voting finished, and then wait in line an average of 30 minutes to caucus vote (sign a sheet of paper identifying your candidate).

I do think the times they are a-changing based on 2 recent events that I thought I would never see in my lifetime.

1. Tom Delay's district in Sugarland Texas elected a Democrat in Nov 2006 (southwest Houston suburb).

2. Dennis Hastert's district in Chicago northwest suburbs just elected a Democrat to take his vacant seat in special election following his resignation. (He's former House Speaker.) I'm originally from Chicago and all my relatives live in northwest suburbs, so I know that area well also. That district is fairly affluent and has always been Republican.

[WDCRob]

Re: Embrace "The Bitch"

Considering that Dem turnout has been been more than double Republican turnout in most primaries this year I think it's safe to say that Rush Limbaugh's ignorant frothing is pretty close to irrelevant.

For example... both Hillary and Obama received more votes in Ohio than McCain and Huckabee combined.

[c1ue]

Re: Embrace "The Bitch"

Clinton was fantastic at fighting without really looking like he was fighting. Jujitusu.

Not really. Check out: the 4 part BBC series: Century of the Self

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...35365191428174

In Part 3, maybe 4, there is an explicit section on Clinton - how he was using polls to determine which way to sway.

That, and masterfully grabbing credit for other's ideas in the same vein as Josef Vissarionovich Dzugashvili (Stalin) - who proved that a committee secretary is equivalent to its master.

Obviously, I support Obama for president. My primary personal motivation is actually pretty simple. There's been either a Clinton or a Bush in the White House EVERY YEAR SINCE 1980 (including Poppy's VP years.) If Hillary wins, what's next, Jeb or one of the other Bush kids in 2016? Who knows, maybe we can keep trading the most important job in the world between these two weird families for a century.

I agree - there doesn't need to be another Clinton/Bush as President.

But choosing a complete novice is not a good choice either. Besides Obama's willingness to embrace the crazy eco-kids (unlike Ron Paul), what exactly has Obama shown he can do? He should take a few terms as Senator, take a position as a Cabinet member, then take his shot. He's plenty young enough.

Professor at U of C? BFD. Bernanke is a professor and look where that's leading us. Academics have NO place as a head of major government apparatti, much less as heaqd of state.

But instead, Obama is killing the Democrat party by undoing the magical Clinton I unification of the working class and the Boston Brahmin/eco-kids/left elite.

Should he win the nomination, he'll effectively both have whacked the Demo platform for many years, plus give the Presidency to McCain.

Why? Because McCain isn't a Bush nor Clinton - in fact Bush has always attacked McCain; Mac has experience, he is tough, he's not African-American, and the Hispanics love him.

And why would the Hispanics love McCain? Besides his progressiveness on immigration and other issues (and an actual track record!), many Hispanics live in political districts dominated by African Americans such as LA.

These Hispanics feel - rightly or wrongly - that these token political overlords are kicking it down to them, and the last thing they want is a national administration with that as a policy. And there are now more Hispanics than African Americans in this country - and more importantly they could very possibly sway the traditional Democrat strongholds in the far West.

Were it Guiliani or some such, Obama might at least get something, but McCain is as progressive a Republican as you're going to find outside of East Texas.

[touchring]

Re: Embrace "The Bitch"

Why? Because McCain isn't a Bush nor Clinton - in fact Bush has always attacked McCain; Mac has experience, he is tough, he's not African-American, and the Hispanics love him.

What if US recession gets really bad before the election, regardless of what Bernanke does??

[c1ue]

Re: Embrace "The Bitch"

What if US recession gets really bad before the election, regardless of what Bernanke does??

That's the beauty of it.

McCain is separated enough from Bush for deniability.

He's also too old - this is his last shot so he won't care if he takes the helm when everything is going to hell. Not that he'd care anyway, just look at the jut on his fighter's jaw.

McCain's biggest baggage is his Iraq policy - and even there he has been very critical on how the whole thing has been handled.

Sure, the eco-kids and peaceniks won't vote for him, but they would never have anyway.

[Slimprofits]

Re: Embrace "The Bitch"

Considering that Dem turnout has been been more than double Republican turnout in most primaries this year I think it's safe to say that Rush Limbaugh's ignorant frothing is pretty close to irrelevant.

For example... both Hillary and Obama received more votes in Ohio than McCain and Huckabee combined.

Yep. The trend in turnout has continued from 2006.