iTulip Guide for the Intelligent Libertarian

[EJ]

There are many flavors of Libertarian. I just read the blog of a guy who calls himself a Left Libertarian. Go figure. I consider myself a progressive Libertarian, that is, socially liberal but financially and fiscally conservative.

The principles of Libertarianism are too important to be left to ideology and religiosity. I'm starting this thread to develop the iTulip Guide for the Intelligent Libertarian. We'll frame it with the extremes and the community can fill in the wee parts in between.

Flat Earth Libertarian: Get rid of all government. No taxes. Privately owned Air Force. Build your own roads and sewer system. Slavery is acceptable as long as there are no sales taxes.

Left Libertarian: The government, while infinitesimally small, provides for our every need, eliminates all risk in life, provides health care and education and jobs and so on, but costs nothing. See also: Utopian Libertarian.

Utopian Libertarian: No taxes or government. But I like to hunt, fish, and camp and don't like pollution, so just enough government to keep the chemical and mining industries from ruining the environment. And I don't like toxic crap in my food, either, so just enough government to keep the food industry from putting too many dangerous chemicals in my food. And no toxic chemicals in my cat's food, for that matter, so just enough government to keep the China's food industry from poisoning my cat. And no dangerous car designs that let the hood pop through the windshield and cut off my head in an accident like they did before laws went into effect, so just enough government to pressure the car industry into making expensive design changes for safety. And I don't like guys driving 100 MPH in the breakdown lane, so just enough government to police the roads. And... (fill in the blank 1,000 things government does that Libertarians can't live a day without)...

[World Traveler]

Re: iTulip Guide for the Intelligent Libertarian

I'll give it a try. I'm also socially liberal and fiscally/ financially conservative.

I strongly believe in a balanced budget, definitely at the personal level and as much as possible at the government level. I've lived a life that any "Bush/ Reagan conservative" would be proud of, never any government handouts ever, worked my way thru college, grad school, and rest of my life, saved and invested, and expect to pay for my own old age.

And the truth is, I can't stand the "core conservative" philosophy of social Darwinism and every man for himself only.

We don't all start from a level playing field and sometimes it's very appropriate to give our fellow man "a hand-up". All the great religions of the world tell us this. We are our brothers keepers, to quote Christianity. In hunter-gatherer societies, where mankind has spent its entire existence except for last 10,000 years, sharing is THE strong value, not competition. It's how they survive in good times and especially bad times.

I've travelled a lot in third world countries, where government is weak and/ or corrupt. Traveled with non-profit organizations where I was able to meet the average (often very poor) citizen.

Imagine living in a country where there is no unemployment insurance, no social security system, no FHA-guaranteed mortgages, no student loan system, where even primary schools are not free (parents skimp to pay fees), no county hospitals, basic health care is unaffordable so you can't see a doctor when you break your leg (I saw that in Ghana) because there are no laws that say hospitals must treat even the indigent in emergency rooms, very poor infrastructure and roads because laws against corrupt politicians and businesses are not enforced. There the buyer must truly beware because there is so little regulation to thwart the predatory and unscrupulous. Also no Small Business Administration to assist small businesses, interest rates are usurious beyond what we can imagine, and you sink or swim, alone.

In many ways, some of these thirld world countries meet the definition of a "Pure Libertarian" society. And, believe me, they are not places where most people would choose to live.

In many of these societies, family, tribal , and ethnic ties are very strong. And much of the reason is that they are your only social safety net.

My opinion is that we need enough government regulation to keep the system as fair and honest as possible. Also to provide basic infrastructure, free education through high school, basic health care for all citizens, and a "helping hand" to society's less fortunate members.

I feel strongly about giving a "helping hand" from government. A child who is born to a single teenage mother, to drug addicts or alcoholics, to very poor parents who make minimum wage, etc. is going to have a much harder time making it into the professional classes than a child born to educated, professional, or wealthy people. There are alway a few exceptional children who do rise above this environment, but they are rare, that is why they are called exceptional. The journey is arduous, fought with peril (especially in teen years), and few mistakes are allowed.

[metalman]

Re: iTulip Guide for the Intelligent Libertarian

I'll give it a try. I'm also socially liberal and fiscally/ financially conservative.

I strongly believe in a balanced budget, definitely at the personal level and as much as possible at the government level. I've lived a life that any "Bush/ Reagan conservative" would be proud of, never any government handouts ever, worked my way thru college, grad school, and rest of my life, saved and invested, and expect to pay for my own old age.

And the truth is, I can't stand the "core conservative" philosophy of social Darwinism and every man for himself only.

We don't all start from a level playing field and sometimes it's very appropriate to give our fellow man "a hand-up". All the great religions of the world tell us this. We are our brothers keepers, to quote Christianity. In hunter-gatherer societies, where mankind has spent its entire existence except for last 10,000 years, sharing is THE strong value, not competition. It's how they survive in good times and especially bad times.

I've travelled a lot in third world countries, where government is weak and/ or corrupt. Traveled with non-profit organizations where I was able to meet the average (often very poor) citizen.

Imagine living in a country where there is no unemployment insurance, no social security system, no FHA-guaranteed mortgages, no student loan system, where even primary schools are not free (parents skimp to pay fees), no county hospitals, basic health care is unaffordable so you can't see a doctor when you break your leg (I saw that in Ghana) because there are no laws that say hospitals must treat even the indigent in emergency rooms, very poor infrastructure and roads because laws against corrupt politicians and businesses are not enforced. There the buyer must truly beware because there is so little regulation to thwart the predatory and unscrupulous. Also no Small Business Administration to assist small businesses, interest rates are usurious beyond what we can imagine, and you sink or swim, alone.

In many ways, some of these thirld world countries meet the definition of a "Pure Libertarian" society. And, believe me, they are not places where most people would choose to live.

In many of these societies, family, tribal , and ethnic ties are very strong. And much of the reason is that they are your only social safety net.

My opinion is that we need enough government regulation to keep the system as fair and honest as possible. Also to provide basic infrastructure, free education through high school, basic health care for all citizens, and a "helping hand" to society's less fortunate members.

I feel strongly about giving a "helping hand" from government. A child who is born to a single teenage mother, to drug addicts or alcoholics, to very poor parents who make minimum wage, etc. is going to have a much harder time making it into the professional classes than a child born to educated, professional, or wealthy people. There are alway a few exceptional children who do rise above this environment, but they are rare, that is why they are called exceptional. The journey is arduous, fought with peril (especially in teen years), and few mistakes are allowed.

that about covers my position. capitalism is short term unfair, long term fair. government needs to keep the fight fair, enforce the rules, protect property rights and the commons. public health is part of the commons, although folks need incentives to stop bad health behavior... taxing cigs and alcohol.

[grapejelly]

Re: iTulip Guide for the Intelligent Libertarian

I'm an anarcho-capitalist.

1. Anarchy isn't the horror despite what we are reflexively trained in government run schools.

2. Government means compulsion and coercion, in Mises words, and I am against both.

3. Private contract means freedom.

4. Abolish government, taxes, everything. Handle defense and police through voluntary mutual protective associations.

5. There is no such thing really as a public good. That is a fiction. Even things like handling theft and murder, and defense of the borders, can easily be done through private contract.

My hero is Hans Hermann Hoppe.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: iTulip Guide for the Intelligent Libertarian

I'm an anarcho-capitalist.

1. Anarchy isn't the horror despite what we are reflexively trained in government run schools.

2. Government means compulsion and coercion, in Mises words, and I am against both.

3. Private contract means freedom.

4. Abolish government, taxes, everything. Handle defense and police through voluntary mutual protective associations.

5. There is no such thing really as a public good. That is a fiction. Even things like handling theft and murder, and defense of the borders, can easily be done through private contract.

My hero is Hans Hermann Hoppe.

Unless you are joking, in my opinion, you strike me as a nut.

[grapejelly]

Re: iTulip Guide for the Intelligent Libertarian

Unless you are joking, in my opinion, you strike me as a nut.

no I am not joking.

yes I am a nut.

[WDCRob]

Re: iTulip Guide for the Intelligent Libertarian

I'm at a loss for a pithy cateogory name, but I'd like to suggest we need a name for the Libertarian who was born on 3rd base and is critical of batters who can't hit the curve ball.

[FRED]

Re: iTulip Guide for the Intelligent Libertarian

I'm at a loss for a pithy cateogory name, but I'd like to suggest we need a name for the Libertarian who was born on 3rd base and is critical of batters who can't hit the curve ball.

Beautiful! "Third Base Libertarian" has a ring to it.

[c1ue]

Re: iTulip Guide for the Intelligent Libertarian

I'm historically a conservative on fiscal matters, libertarian on social matters, and believe big government is the epitome of creeping bureaucracy.

I believe government should be afraid of its people, and things like gun control are ways to keep the revolutionary spirit dead although I personally am NOT a gun nut.

But I am increasingly being driven towards the socialist ethos by what Marx clearly identified as the inevitable downfall of capitalism: the greedy capitalists. The problem, of course, is that socialism itself also ultimately relies on leaders leading everyone toward the common good as opposed to the personal good.

I think the only solution is a highly fanatical closed order religion promoting removal of bad government. Kind of like terrorism of bad leaders...

Put in a nice listing of 'bad government' activities with a point system; upon attaining a certain rating, a 'jihad' is declared kind of thing.

[rabot10]

Re: iTulip Guide for the Intelligent Libertarian

that about covers my position. capitalism is short term unfair, long term fair. government needs to keep the fight fair, enforce the rules, protect property rights and the commons. public health is part of the commons, although folks need incentives to stop bad health behavior... taxing cigs and alcohol.

What he said

[DemonD]

Re: iTulip Guide for the Intelligent Libertarian

EJ, that first one is what I would consider "anarchy."

I consider myself left libertarian, although I don't know if that's the right word for it. Maybe I should say that I'm more of a liberal who is a staunch civil rights advocate. I prefer common sense - but that is very rare (unfortunately). There are so many issues that occur on a societal and individual level I don't think that anything resembling anarchy is good at all. My liberal leanings are things like very pro-environment, anti-development (for example, they've been trying to put a big airport near mammoth mountain, ca, for over a decade, and this would be the worst thing for the environment), i'm very pro health-care, i believe that there can be some kind of national or at least statewide system, also as a "common sense" approach I believe the state should pay for an abortion for anyone who wants it as an unwanted baby will end up costing society much more than the procedure would cost, on the other hand i believe we should take every illegal immigrant and drop them off at the border of their home country, fine the crap out of any company that hires these people, and build a 100 foot wall between the US and Mexico. I believe in preventing illegal search and seizure, I believe that cops shouldn't have the right to trick you into a confession (5th amendment), free speech, gun ownership with restrictions (especially no guns to anyone with a violent crime history), I BELIEVE IN THE RIGHT TO ASSEMBLY and this is the one that is kind of tough, because gangs sometimes are violated of this right but they are doing bad stuff; on the other hand it absolutely galls me to no end that it's illegal to be on a LA city beach after it "closes" - how can you close a beach? It's a freakin beach! It's land. I believe in personal and civil rights.

Regarding money and markets. Such a tough thing. I believe in fair markets - but what, really, is "fair"? How do you achieve a fair market? Do we need a central bank? Should we have a bigger SEC, or no SEC at all? I definitely am against corporate welfare and earmarks and subsidies, but on the other hand certain subsidies are truly beneficial to society (like biotech research and agritech grants, to name 2).

This is why I end up feeling like i'm left-libertarian or a liberal-civil rightist. Leave me alone but make sure society functions well.

[Ann]

Re: iTulip Guide for the Intelligent Libertarian

EJ, that first one is what I would consider "anarchy."

I consider myself left libertarian, although I don't know if that's the right word for it. Maybe I should say that I'm more of a liberal who is a staunch civil rights advocate. I prefer common sense - but that is very rare (unfortunately). There are so many issues that occur on a societal and individual level I don't think that anything resembling anarchy is good at all. My liberal leanings are things like very pro-environment, anti-development (for example, they've been trying to put a big airport near mammoth mountain, ca, for over a decade, and this would be the worst thing for the environment), i'm very pro health-care, i believe that there can be some kind of national or at least statewide system, also as a "common sense" approach I believe the state should pay for an abortion for anyone who wants it as an unwanted baby will end up costing society much more than the procedure would cost, on the other hand i believe we should take every illegal immigrant and drop them off at the border of their home country, fine the crap out of any company that hires these people, and build a 100 foot wall between the US and Mexico. I believe in preventing illegal search and seizure, I believe that cops shouldn't have the right to trick you into a confession (5th amendment), free speech, gun ownership with restrictions (especially no guns to anyone with a violent crime history), I BELIEVE IN THE RIGHT TO ASSEMBLY and this is the one that is kind of tough, because gangs sometimes are violated of this right but they are doing bad stuff; on the other hand it absolutely galls me to no end that it's illegal to be on a LA city beach after it "closes" - how can you close a beach? It's a freakin beach! It's land. I believe in personal and civil rights.

Regarding money and markets. Such a tough thing. I believe in fair markets - but what, really, is "fair"? How do you achieve a fair market? Do we need a central bank? Should we have a bigger SEC, or no SEC at all? I definitely am against corporate welfare and earmarks and subsidies, but on the other hand certain subsidies are truly beneficial to society (like biotech research and agritech grants, to name 2).

This is why I end up feeling like i'm left-libertarian or a liberal-civil rightist. Leave me alone but make sure society functions well.

Simple enough for me: I want gov't out of my personal life but all over my public life. If next to no government is anyone's ideal, here's your libertarian dream world: the Citarum river in Indonesia. You're welcomed to move there. Me: I'll stay and suffer a bit of government, that you.

[WDCRob]

Re: iTulip Guide for the Intelligent Libertarian

At least the river's not on fire, Ann. We had our own experiment in hands-off government and environmental pollution here. Didn't turn out so well, really.

[jimmygu3]

Re: iTulip Guide for the Intelligent Libertarian

...i believe we should take every illegal immigrant and drop them off at the border of their home country, fine the crap out of any company that hires these people, and build a 100 foot wall between the US and Mexico.

DemonD,

The second step of your plan would be the only one really necessary: fine the crap out of any company or individual that hires illegal workers. If there's no opportunity for work, the illegals will go home and won't come back without a work visa. The 100 ft wall is like putting a fence around your dinner table to keep the dog away, but feeding him when he gets through. If there's no possibility of reward on the other side, there's no need for an extensive (and expensive) barrier.

The reason none of this has happened is because the don't-ask-don't tell, blame-Mexicans-for-our-problems status quo provides cheap labor that keeps costs & inflation down, and corporate profits up. We need a certain number of these people in our workforce. The idea of guest workers and a path to citizenship makes a lot of sense to me.

Jimmy

[c1ue]

Re: iTulip Guide for the Intelligent Libertarian

I understand the sentiment, but in reality the illegal immigrants benefit the status quo in the US.

For every instance of someone 'illegal' sucking up school or hospital resources, there are dozens of jobs which I don't want to do - and evidently most other Americans as well.

Another reason? Government policies.

the People's Republic of San Francisco just passed a law last year forcing all companies with 20 or more employees to pay $1.17/hour (20-99) or $1.76/hour (100+) in health care.

Unsurprisingly, a ton of medium sized businesses have left town.

The remaining large restaurants, etc I'm sure are busy with the shady side now if they weren't before.