FIRE Economy Explosion Fallout -- Part I: Recession ends, depression begins - Eric Janszen

[mesyn191]

Re: FIRE Economy Fallout -- Part I: Recession ends, depression begins

Then what does explain it?

The FIRE economy. More specifically the changes that have been made since at least the Regan era (I'd argue things really started to change for the worst with Nixon) that have more and more favored the rich, while being promoted as being otherwise. The middle/poor are now the rentier class, wealth is extracted from them to support the system and enrich the few, its neo-feudalism as has been noted by others like Hudson.

The money will eventually flow to the more capable earners no matter how many times you hand some back to the less capable earners.

The same way the wealth flowed to Madoff or the guys who ran AIG-FP or the union workers at Chrysler? Anything to make a profit right?

This is strictly your opinion.

Its got some basis in reality though. After all, did this hypothetical CEO/CFO really earn the money or did he/she just take advantage of stupidity/imbalances in the market? Is profit the sole measure of worth/value?

It's up to the Board/owners of that company to decide how much that CEO/CFO is worth.

Thats a bit of a joke these days though, the way things are currently set up its almost impossible for a board to dictate earnings for many of the CEO's/CFO's. These people get almost anything they want these days, golden parachutes included.

So, who are you mad at and who do you think should change this?

I was just giving an example of how much things have changed for the middle/poor class over the decades, you seemed unaware of it if not flat out unsympathetic, I was unsure of which but I guess we know now don't we?

Should the government nationalize homebuilders and, via taxes on the "rich", build all of us a McMansion?

No, I think they should let them all fail, same thing goes for the banks and financial companies.

[jiimbergin]

Re: FIRE Economy Fallout -- Part I: Recession ends, depression begins

Thats a bit of a joke these days though, the way things are currently set up its almost impossible for a board to dictate earnings for many of the CEO's/CFO's. These people get almost anything they want these days, golden parachutes included.

This is exactly what I experienced (BTW I did get a golden parachute since the big boys did and, of course, I did not turn it down)

jim

[cindykimlisa]

Re: FIRE Economy Fallout -- Part I: Recession ends, depression begins



We are living in an age of moral midgets. People who would have been shunned twenty+ years ago by society at large are now popular celebrities and political officeholders. And many wealthy people - some that I know - have no wish to even look at the disparity all around them, much less seek to help formulate a solution. Maybe there isn't one, but it should concern them. Our society is apathetic, dependant, coarser, greedier, overfed and overindulged, and I fear altogether unprepared for the hurricane that is likely bearing down on us. There is a spiritual quality to stable societies as well as a material one, and I fear we've lost it.

Preach on brother

[flintlock]

Re: FIRE Economy Fallout -- Part I: Recession ends, depression begins - Eric Janszen

I've noticed Mega posts getting longer also. Nice.

Good point rjwjr, we were mostly all Brits back when the sleaziest deals were struck with the Indians.

But I have to agree with Mega that more recent American business dealings bring to mind the term " lying weasels". But we lie to ourselves every bit as much as we do to other countries. Its not like its a nationalistic thing.

[flintlock]

Re: FIRE Economy Fallout -- Part I: Recession ends, depression begins

We are living in an age of moral midgets. People who would have been shunned twenty+ years ago by society at large are now popular celebrities and political officeholders. And many wealthy people - some that I know - have no wish to even look at the disparity all around them, much less seek to help formulate a solution. Maybe there isn't one, but it should concern them. Our society is apathetic, dependant, coarser, greedier, overfed and overindulged, and I fear altogether unprepared for the hurricane that is likely bearing down on us. There is a spiritual quality to stable societies as well as a material one, and I fear we've lost it.

Preach on brother

Agree. That's what I've been saying for a long time. A lot of America's problem is a moral issue though that isn't popular to talk about these days. Some think you can throw out morals and let reason and knowledge take its place. It never works.

[metalman]

Re: FIRE Economy Fallout -- Part I: Recession ends, depression begins

Agree. That's what I've been saying for a long time. A lot of America's problem is a moral issue though that isn't popular to talk about these days. Some think you can throw out morals and let reason and knowledge take its place. It never works.

ok... so... you're sent back in time 200 yrs... you're sitting with john adams... you are explaining this...

Port Star Running for Senate

BATON ROUGE, La. (AP) — Stormy Daniels strode onstage at a downtown Baton Rouge restaurant in a tight black blouse with a plunging neckline and a knee-length skirt in the popular purple of Louisiana State University. She introduced herself with a warning."For those of you who don't know who I am," she told the lunch crowd at The Roux House, "I'd suggest that you don't Google that until you get home from work."

She's a Louisiana-born porn star who says she is considering a 2010 run for the U.S. Senate seat currently held by Republican David Vitter, whose family-values reputation was marred in 2007 when his name was linked to a Washington prostitution ring.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: FIRE Economy Fallout -- Part I: Recession ends, depression begins - Eric Janszen

metalman, I don't know what TF one'd say to John Adams, but it is not hard to explain today. At least, apparently, the LA porn-star is honest, and that in itself were she elected might very well place her into the den of thieves.

There is a whole lot of bitching going on here about lack of morality in business and politics, but no one is suggesting a possible answer, and I keep thinking about what is the answer, and I flat out don't know. It would seem that the answer isn't election of more who run on family values, in that "family values" seems to encompass lying a whole lot when it applies to those in politics.

[metalman]

Re: FIRE Economy Fallout -- Part I: Recession ends, depression begins - Eric Janszen

metalman, I don't know what TF one'd say to John Adams, but it is not hard to explain today. At least, apparently, the LA porn-star is honest, and that in itself were she elected might very well place her into the den of thieves.

There is a whole lot of bitching going on here about lack of morality in business and politics, but no one is suggesting a possible answer, and I keep thinking about what is the answer, and I flat out don't know. It would seem that the answer isn't election of more who run on family values, unless "family values" encompasses lying a whole lot.

unpalatable...

The author goes on to say that building a viable third party to restore democracy to America requires that Progressive intellectuals—Libertarians in modern parlance—roll up their pant legs, climb down from the Ivory Tower, and wade into the gutter of American politics.

[thunderdownunder]

Re: FIRE Economy Fallout -- Part I: Recession ends, depression begins - Eric Janszen

And Raz, some predicted it many centuries ago.

If some lose their whole fortunes, they will drag many more down with them . . . believe me that the whole system of credit and finance which is carried on here at Rome in the Forum, is inextricably bound up with the revenues of the Asiatic province. If Those revenues are destroyed, our whole system of credit will come down with a crash."
-- Cicero, 66 B.C. (Translation by W.W. Fowler, 1909)

Back then the correction of the problem was also offered by the same man

"The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced, if the nation doesn't want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."
-- Cicero, 55 BC

Clearly if you fail to learn from history you are damned to repeat it.

Just substitute the Roman Forum with US Congress and absolutely nothing has changed. Watch Asia very carefully because if it falls ill you will have a financial pandemic of proportions that will cause total social collapse.

Thankfully China has, today, started to pull back on the bridle. They are at least wise enough to see a runaway bubble
but is it enough?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aAffZhhb91RM

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: FIRE Economy Fallout -- Part I: Recession ends, depression begins - Eric Janszen

There is a whole lot of bitching going on here about lack of morality in business and politics, but no one is suggesting a possible answer, and I keep thinking about what is the answer, and I flat out don't know.

Morality and ethics that trescend generations can only be the result of attending the school of hard knocks for generations.

There is no short cut. We will not live long enough to see this play out. We can just do our little part to tend to our own well being, help out our relatives and neighbors, and contribute what we can to the larger scale learning.

Human civilization mushroomed to a much greater level of complexity over the last century. It may take us humans a few centuries to figure out how to properly manage this new fangled power in a way that works both on the large scale and for the fair treatment and well being of individuals.

[cjppjc]

Re: FIRE Economy Fallout -- Part I: Recession ends, depression begins

Some here (at itulip forums) would argue that the shepherd has a right to fleece his flock.

Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention.

The subjects of spirtuality and greed have come up here. They seem mutually exclusive. Someone once said that greed was inevitable in the absence of an inner aim. It seems true to me.

[vinoveri]

Re: FIRE Economy Fallout -- Part I: Recession ends, depression begins - Eric Janszen

there will be no universal justice and peace (i..e, no utopia), at least not until the "lion lays down with the lamb". There may be periods of great prosperity and peace, but those never last; corrupt human nature cannot be trusted and it cannot be kept down without continual supervision and exercising the wisdom that has been handed down to us from our forebearers. But modernism has chucked that wisdom down into the sewer

history is before us; how much more do we need to see that generation after generation, century after century, millenium after millenium, the same sad and sorry "soap operas" are re-played by man. Murder, treachery, deceit and manipulation ... oppression.

Human nature is with us till the end, my friends. The modern man is no different or superior at his core than the ancient man The fallacy is believing that we are "progressing" toward an inevitable "good end".
Look at the facts of history for goodness sake. Technical advances, and raised standards of living, long life spans, etc. are all good, but they have yet to change who we are at the core (and some might argue, they have served as excuses to cut the ties with the past and reason itself).

[rjwjr]

Re: FIRE Economy Fallout -- Part I: Recession ends, depression begins

these smug "ability" arguments are really a joke! tell me why, if disparities are merely the product of different abilities, distribution has varied so much over the course of history, even within the same political systems? i guess those 20-something mortgage brokers and real estate hustlers are really among the most "able"! or they were until quite recently. suddenly, they're not so "able" any more. what happened?

If you think my arguments are "smug" or that I am implying that I am a better person than someone less wealthy, then you are missing my point completely and you are implying that I am a type of person that I most definitely am not.

I simply feel it's obvious that some people know what it takes to create (and hang onto) wealth, and some people don't. It has nothing to do with character. I, for example, am supremely confident that I could start from nothing today and, within 10 years, could be worth at least $1,000,000. It's not "smug", it's the confidence of having run two businesses (I left the family business for 6 years in '99-'05 to start a completely unrelated business to prove to myself that I could be successful without the family business safety net) coupled with the confidence of having a bit of profound knowledge about what it takes to succeed. There are many others reading this post (a large majority of iTulipers I bet) that have the same confidence. And, importantly, we don't accumulate our wealth by being crooked, dishonest, or taking advantage of others. Here's a simple example...

If the goverment gave everyone a $25,000 tax refund, most of us iTulipers (a group made up primarily of the "more capable") would buy physical gold or pay down debt or stock-up on food or in some way "invest" most, if not all of this unexpected windfall. On the other hand, I'm convinced that the vast majority of others, the "less capable" would buy a car (probably financing some of it) or take a vacation or buy new clothes or some other way to start the process of sending the wealth right back to the wealth creators. This doesn't make these "spenders" worse people, it simply makes them "less capable" of improving their position in life. They may get a real thrill out of the new car, but they're increasing the wealth disparity between themselves and their iTulip-minded, "more capable" wealth accumulators. Nobody took advantage of the "less capable" in this example, they were free to make whatever decision they wished with their $25,000 rebate. The "more capable" didn't steal it from them, however, they did own the car dealership, resort, or clothing store in which the "less capable" spent their refund.

The bottom line is that I simply mean "less capable" of building and holding onto their money, not "less capable" in character, person, charity, honesty or any other way. I remain convinced that wealth disparity is a fact of life and, yes, it is PRIMARILY a result of the concious and free decisions made by each individual. You can take money from the wealthy and give it to the less wealthy over and over and over, and the money will find it's way back to (mostly) the same (type of) people. Do it too often, or too severely, and the wealthy (which are also the wealth creators) will leave the country or retire or in some way cease to create as much wealth. You'll likely lose all of the honest and honorable entreprenuers and business owners, only to be left with the real cheats and opportunists.

[bart]

Re: FIRE Economy Fallout -- Part I: Recession ends, depression begins - Eric Janszen

There is a whole lot of bitching going on here about lack of morality in business and politics, but no one is suggesting a possible answer, and I keep thinking about what is the answer, and I flat out don't know.

I've posted 2 of these a few times before here... to a resounding *thump*



According to Aristotle one Greek city state had a fundamental law: anyone proposing revisions to the constitution did so with a noose around his neck. If his proposal lost he was instantly hanged.

In Roman times Ventotene, known as Pandataria, was used to exile disgraced Roman noblewomen. The Emperor Augustus sent his daughter Julia there because of her adultery.

The Coinage Act of 1972 included the death penalty for altering gold & silver coin purity... and the coins have remained pure.



I'm not much of a fan of capital punishment... but am a lot less of a fan of cultures or societies crashing... and worse.

Until such time as there are consistent and large penalties for real anti-social and similar acts, they will continue. That's a very unpopular view... and that doesn't make it less true.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: FIRE Economy Fallout -- Part I: Recession ends, depression begins - Eric Janszen

I've posted 2 of these a few times before here... to a resounding *thump*



According to Aristotle one Greek city state had a fundamental law: anyone proposing revisions to the constitution did so with a noose around his neck. If his proposal lost he was instantly hanged.

In Roman times Ventotene, known as Pandataria, was used to exile disgraced Roman noblewomen. The Emperor Augustus sent his daughter Julia there because of her adultery.

The Coinage Act of 1972 included the death penalty for altering gold & silver coin purity... and the coins have remained pure.

I'm not much of a fan of capital punishment... but am a lot less of a fan of cultures or societies crashing... and worse.

Until such time as there are consistent and large penalties for real anti-social and similar acts, they will continue. That's a very unpopular view... and that doesn't make it less true.

Capital punishment is not unpopular with me, the shortcoming with it only being if we do not have honest prosecutors (always gets back to honesty).

I seriously believe the only way to change the current system is for most all of the voters to unite (which is an impossibility) and call for a change to the bill of rights to wipe out freedom of speech in which it can be presently be interpreted that monetary donation to political candidates is a "form of free speech." To change the constitution would require a national slate of candidates dedicated to making the change of the constitution, then if all that happened, it would further take a state-wide slate of candidates to be elected who would promise to ratify the contitutional amendment. I don't think that will ever happen.

I definitely think that the punishment for all elected officials proven guilty of corruption should be that they are painfully put to death. Anything short of that will be pissing into the wind when you are downwind.