The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

[rj1]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

I think that Libertarians scare people because contrary to popular understanding, people want to be told what to do as long as it's what they wanted to do anyway. Moreover, people like telling other people what to do because they lack the personal self determination to actualize their goals themselves.

Libertarians, such as myself, neither desire to tell people what to do nor want to be told what to do. This condition is rare, it is individualism in a world where everyone seeks to fit into the herd. The thought of "gasp" freedom is a scary concept, not for yourself of course but freedom for the OTHER GUY. This attribute does not necessarily lend itself out well to an organized political movement (hearding cats comes to mind.)

Current politics is about GIVING people something from someone else. It pits group against group into a "zero sum game" contest where the victor gets to use the blunt force of government to beat the other guy over the head. Libertarians do not "Dwell in ivory towers" but are caught on the horns of a dilema. To gain any political power one must be willing to use government influence to necessarily obstruct the liberty of another party to gain the support of the former party, which is not very "libertous" of a Libertarian.

Most people are Libertarian, they just dont realize it. They are confortable in their judgement in managing personal affairs, but not in the judgement of others in theirs.

One day Libertarian ideals will not only be embraced, but any other thing other than that will be reviled, much like slavery is reviled today on MORAL grounds. At that point, I don't envision a 1,2 or 3 party system but a system that essentially self manages, much the way I decided how to pick out the socks I was going to wear today without consulting Obama. This would allow freedom to be coupled with responsibility and people afforded the maximum amount of self determination which aggregated as a society will lead to its highest ideals and potentialities being realized as the individual realizes theirs.

With all due respect, opinions like yours is part of the problem as we are constantly perceived with a stick up our ass practicing "holier than thou" and that everyone around us is stupid and uneducated, because if they were smart and educated, they would share our viewpoint.

Maybe 10% of society is libertarian, not the party who are full of Ruwarts, but tend to hold the general philosophy plus or minus a couple things (absolutism is also an enemy of the philosophy). We have to increase the people that share our points of view, not shut the door on them being patronizing absolutists.

[rj1]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

I would remind you that an Obama v McCain final didn't look very likely in 2005.

And? We weren't in a major recession in 2005 with one party's power so large that they had a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.

Alf Landon in 1936 was the Republican Party's nominee for President. He won a grand total of two states, Maine and Vermont, to FDR's forty-six. Landon got 36.5% of the vote and 11 million less votes than FDR did.

[vinoveri]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

You might consider adding science to the first highlight, and note too that with what has been a historical prevalence of theistic religions in this country, the indoctrination of youngsters from well before formal schooling age, they are seemingly quite often indoctrinated with religion, which requires the absence of a questioning mind to accept without any reservations. With that background for so many, why should an absence of critical thinking come as a surprise.

Life in any organism is a happenstance. Man for whatever reasons evolved with the ability at times to think and contrive. Liberty is a contrivance, a notion. Liberty might add, and probably does/should add, to the quality of life, but unchecked liberty leads to the demeaning of life in a populated society.

Jim, my friend, you are eminently reasonable, but wrong that Liberty is a contrivance. Liberty (i.e., natural rights) comes from the Creator, and cannot be justly denied to anyone. If it were a contrivance then there is no reason why it can't be argued or redefined effectively out of existence.

The fact that history may be replete with examples of theocracies or large theological factions imposing unjustly their will on others reflects on the viciousness of human nature, but does not alter the truth of Natural Law, neither does the fact that our modern culture has continued to deny it.

Of course science is part of any curriculuum to develop a "well trained mind". The pursuit of scientific truth is fundamentally hinged on the axiom that the universe is ordered as you know. There is an order to the world.

[cjppjc]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

And? We weren't in a major recession in 2005 with one party's power so large that they had a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.

Alf Landon in 1936 was the Republican Party's nominee for President. He won a grand total of two states, Maine and Vermont, to FDR's forty-six. Landon got 36.5% of the vote and 11 million less votes than FDR did.

Yes. That is my point. Things changed. Who can guess what 2012 will bring?

[rj1]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

Yes. That is my point. Things changed. Who can guess what 2012 will bring?

Not a Republican victory. Unless we get in a war with Russia and China and our military loses and there is Weimer-style hyperinflation while Mexico annexes the Southwest, I don't think a Republican is winning in 2012. Society has turned on them way too much, and it's hard for a party to win when it can't find a leader. Yeah, there's a lot of people pissed off at what the government is doing right now, but you can't win elections on 40% in a 2-horse race.

[cjppjc]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

Not a Republican victory. Unless we get in a war with Russia and China and our military loses and there is Weimer-style hyperinflation while Mexico annexes the Southwest, I don't think a Republican is winning in 2012. Society has turned on them way too much, and it's hard for a party to win when it can't find a leader. Yeah, there's a lot of people pissed off at what the government is doing right now, but you can't win elections on 40% in a 2-horse race.

Myself if I were a betting man. I would take the long odds that President Obama does not get reelected. The world is very fluid. I agree with your assessment. It just might be wrong is all. Who said "Hey things change."

[Mn_Mark]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

Not a Republican victory. Unless we get in a war with Russia and China and our military loses and there is Weimer-style hyperinflation while Mexico annexes the Southwest, I don't think a Republican is winning in 2012. Society has turned on them way too much, and it's hard for a party to win when it can't find a leader. Yeah, there's a lot of people pissed off at what the government is doing right now, but you can't win elections on 40% in a 2-horse race.

Yeah and after Nixon resigned in 1974, Jimmy Carter was elected in 1976 because it looked like Nixon's disgrace had tarnished the Republican brand for at least a decade. But four years of Carter later, a Republican - and someone no one took seriously as a candidate - a B-movie actor! - was elected President.

Don't underestimate the ability of left-wing Democrats to overreach and repel the public with their characteristic lecturing, taxes, appeasement, and big-government solutions to every problem. They take public fatigue with Republicans as a ringing endorsement of their statist solutions to problems, and the fact is the great majority of Americans do not want left-wing solutions to the country's problems.

[Slimprofits]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

Plain and simple the Democrats are already overreaching and it's only 2009.

Don't forget that probably the biggest reason Congressional Republican incumbents lost in 2006 was because of the events taking place in Iraq.

Hello Afghanistan?

Round and round we go. The Republicans will make a comeback as the party of small government. It will be 1994 all over again. And just like in 1994 it will just be political mumbo-jumbo and not an actual principle to govern by.

[Roughneck]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

It all comes back to the golden rule...he who has the gold makes the rules. Unles you can pass term limits AND prohibit those with money from buying influence,nothing will change. Neither of which is likely to happen.

[rj1]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

Most recently there seems to be an uprising against the "system" in Honduras with the milatary physically escorting the president over to Costa Rica. The problem with such a change in the US is that I do not believe the Air Force has enough planes, and the Army and Marines enough men to roundup and shipout all the miscreants that need to be ridded from the US.

That can be done with ease. Most politicians and their partisan supporters are wimps, cowards, and p*ssies.

[rj1]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

Plain and simple the Democrats are already overreaching and it's only 2009.

Don't forget that probably the biggest reason Congressional Republican incumbents lost in 2006 was because of the events taking place in Iraq.

Hello Afghanistan?

Round and round we go. The Republicans will make a comeback as the party of small government. It will be 1994 all over again. And just like in 1994 it will just be political mumbo-jumbo and not an actual principle to govern by.

Yeah, but people's memories have to forget the previous administration's woes, and people haven't forgotten the Republicans 2002-2006 yet. Of course the Democrats are overreaching. When a party discredited themselves as fully as the Republicans did to allow the Democrats a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, what else are they going to do? Stand by and not use their unquestioned full and complete power?

"Democracy is the theory the common man knows what he wants and he deserves to get it good and hard." - H.L. Mencken

[simitpatel]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

hyperinflation, bankrupt state and local governments, and war. those are painful things, but i think they are powerful enough to force the people to demand reform. or at the very least, the existing system is crumbling, so people will need to build something to replace it.

so i think this is a bit different than the great depression in that sense. this crisis i think will end up being more painful and will involve the american empire collapsing under the weight of its own debt. once the empire collapses, political reform of some kind will become inevitable.

[Raz]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

Jim, my friend, you are eminently reasonable, but wrong that Liberty is a contrivance. Liberty (i.e., natural rights) comes from the Creator, and cannot be justly denied to anyone. If it were a contrivance then there is no reason why it can't be argued or redefined effectively out of existence.

The fact that history may be replete with examples of theocracies or large theological factions imposing unjustly their will on others reflects on the viciousness of human nature, but does not alter the truth of Natural Law, neither does the fact that our modern culture has continued to deny it.

Of course science is part of any curriculuum to develop a "well trained mind". The pursuit of scientific truth is fundamentally hinged on the axiom that the universe is ordered as you know. There is an order to the world.

Yes indeed.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Nothing that we know of which dares to even approach the intricacy of life has ever occured by chance.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

Jim, my friend, you are eminently reasonable, but wrong that Liberty is a contrivance. Liberty (i.e., natural rights) comes from the Creator, and cannot be justly denied to anyone. If it were a contrivance then there is no reason why it can't be argued or redefined effectively out of existence.

The fact that history may be replete with examples of theocracies or large theological factions imposing unjustly their will on others reflects on the viciousness of human nature, but does not alter the truth of Natural Law, neither does the fact that our modern culture has continued to deny it.

Of course science is part of any curriculuum to develop a "well trained mind". The pursuit of scientific truth is fundamentally hinged on the axiom that the universe is ordered as you know. There is an order to the world.

Yes indeed.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Nothing that we know of which dares to even approach the intricacy of life has ever occured by chance.

I surmise that you fellows are some sort of theists; I hope I'm not being overly presumptive with that.

As far as I know, all theistic beliefs are based on faith, maybe Moses, Abraham, or Joseph Smith, were they here, would argue differently, but I take it as a fact that all theistic religions are based on faith, and if one can find or develop such faith and benefit in someway from such religions that is fine by me.

However, it is my opinion that some, who are so wrapped up in their beliefs, would translate their faith-based beliefs into the laws of the land so that their (the faith-based believers) exercise of religious freedom is believed to be best for everyone, even those who do not share it, despite such infringement upon the religious (or non-religious) rights of others, are wrong in their desires to impose their beliefs. There is some contradiction in there in believing in religious freedom while wishing to impose one group's beliefs on everyone and believing that this is necessarily the right thing to be done.

Apparently the framers of the US Constitution believed ("held") that their perception of "truths" were "self-evident." That they believed whatever did not and does not in itself make it a fact. It might be their beliefs were generally "good," which I happen to believe they generally were, but nevertheless it was and is still the opinion of what they thought things would best be in the mid-18th century.

The second part Raz, and those long before him, put forth: "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." could be/is true if there is a theistic being which I believe in this case was/is the Christian God. But what if the actuality is that there is no god, no superior being? Is the statement then valid? Its sentiments to some degree may be good, but that is a human judgement and not a divine dictum of some sort that a group figured out as the will of the god they chose to believe existed. That it is a written opinion in the Constitution does not make a statement factually valid.

Not all people are in fact "created" equal, which to me means "developed" equally after an woman's egg is successfully attacked by a sperm cell. Those with mongolism are not equal to the normal of human development, nor are those with spina bifida, or craniofacial anomalies, or congential heart defects, or those with anencephaly.

If there is some question of the actuality of a god (and for all intelligent minds there is a question), then things deemed as "unalienable rights" are also subject to question, like it or not.

Do I have a right to life if I go out and start killing others, or raping young or old girls, or blowing up innocent people in a federal building? Of course not. Since this is the "land of liberty" can I rightfully rip off everyone who is a doofus with a Ponzi scheme as did Madoff? Or in this land of liberty if I am elected to high offices by waving the flag for the religious right, is it okay for me to sell my votes and decisions to the bidder giving me the biggest kickback? If my pursuit of happiness if only fulfilled by being a pedophile, is that okay? The Constitution suggests all these are unalienable rights.

That there may be things on which many, even 50.0001% in a democracy agree does not in fact make it right or correct under all circumstances for the other 49.9999%, especially in issues pertaining to religious views.

I don't generally consider myself evil, but perhaps I am just that. One thing I enjoy on the rare ocassion it presents itself, and if my time permits, is to "bait" to some mild degree the 20-ish year old Morman missionaries who ride their bikes up and down my street at times. I've nothing particular against Morman missionaries, it is that they are just the ones most likely to show up. I invite them onto the porch, offer them some ice water, and say "Shoot." When they, usually within minutes, put some Biblical truth on me, I interrupt and ask "How do you know that is a fact." Whatever they answer, it is never anything approaching recognition that their beliefs are based on faith. Last conversation I happened to have about religion was with a man, not a missionary, who happened also to be a Morman. I asked him did he know there was a god? He spat back immediately a positive reply, but was wise enough to consider his answer and replied, "No, I don't know it, but I do believe it."

For theists to make that small step in differentiating "faith" from "actuality" in my opinion is one giant step in getting along with all mankind.

If my surmise, Raz and Vinoveri, that you are theists is wrong I meant no offense and apologize if that is needed.

[marvenger]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

it really surprises me how little people state the bloody obvious. i think most people don't have a safe enough sense of themselves to point out and face this most underlying, intrinsic and obvious of problems, it goes too much against what they are actually trying to achieve in life despite all their whining, they can't deal with the hipocrisy. Thanks for the rare moment roughneck.