The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

[c1ue]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

The legal/non-violent/non-fraudulent desires of monopolists can only be evil if the monopolies are coercive. A non-coercive monopoly actually tends to benefit people in the form of things like lower prices. A coercive monopoly is one where you don't have a choice. They can *only* exist with the approval and backing of government, not in a truly free market. Utility companies are an example.

With a non-coercive monopoly, people are free to compete. If they do, and can produce a better product, then they survive and prosper. If they can't, then who (besides the potential competitor) is damaged? No one.

So you're saying that Enron is ok? Its 'competition' resulted in significantly higher outlays for power for several states and millions of households.

I note this because there are differences between buying an iPod and buying electricity.

Theoretically you could get lower electricity prices via competition, but in reality you could as likely (or more) get higher prices via collusion, manipulation, etc etc.

The point is that there are things which their very nature are necessary and thus monopoly over which are coercive.

Food, water, electricity are clear examples.

Credit is another possible example. Computer/Internet usage could be another.

Again to be clear I am not against capitalism per se.

I merely point out that it is an error to think that capitalism itself doesn't have its own weak points.

Again, patents can only be issued with the cooperation of government -- it's a form of government-granted monopoly.

So you're saying patents are bad and should be abolished?

I have openly been of the belief that the patent system is outdated and is being abused, but even I don't think that!

But you still haven't commented on the virtual tollbooth mentality which does exist in the form of companies like Microsoft and Google.

I personally am of the belief that access to computers and/or the internet should not be subject to the tollbooths of a profit seeking corporation, but will admit that ultimately the cost due to these institutions is relatively low...for now.

[Chris Coles]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

Thank you Jim,

I am reminded of once, many years ago, travelling across the English Channel in a cross channel ferry overnight, I got into a wonderful debate about the origins of religion with another group of fellow travellers; only for the whole thing to be brought to a complete halt when someone sleeping on the floor of the restaurant where we all were, suddenly got to his feet raving about we were driving him nuts and would we all please SHUT UP!

Chris.

PS. The Quakers http://www.quaker.org.uk/ here in the UK have challenged anyone to write a paper on the subject of religion.

Go to Sunday 26 July 2009 BBC R4 Sunday programme The editor of Friends Quarterly, Tony Stoller is interviewed. Listen again here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ay_26_07_2009/

The Tony Stoller interview runs form 21.40' to 25.07'


I have it in mind to send in my own paper and if so, I will then post it on Rant and Rave.

Fred; We need a link to Rant and Rave on the home page please. that way we can more easily see when new thoughts arrive.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

Thank you Jim,

I am reminded of once, many years ago, travelling across the English Channel in a cross channel ferry overnight, I got into a wonderful debate about the origins of religion with another group of fellow travellers; only for the whole thing to be brought to a complete halt when someone sleeping on the floor of the restaurant where we all were, suddenly got to his feet raving about we were driving him nuts and would we all please SHUT UP!

Chris.

PS. The Quakers http://www.quaker.org.uk/ here in the UK have challenged anyone to write a paper on the subject of religion.

Go to Sunday 26 July 2009 BBC R4 Sunday programme The editor of Friends Quarterly, Tony Stoller is interviewed. Listen again here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ay_26_07_2009/

The Tony Stoller interview runs form 21.40' to 25.07'


I have it in mind to send in my own paper and if so, I will then post it on Rant and Rave.

Fred; We need a link to Rant and Rave on the home page please. that way we can more easily see when new thoughts arrive.

Chris, thanks for the link. There are few things on the web for which I will use 45 mins. to listen, but from the intro of your link, I'll likely go back and hear the entire segment. The intro whetted my opinion that the Catholic Church should be entirely shut down because of its history of pedophilia and its handling of the matter, and I don't consider myself a "god-hater" or as anti-religion, so that is not my attraction.

If you write a paper in the contest, put it up, I'm rather sure it would be interesting.

[Sharky]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

So you're saying that Enron is ok? Its 'competition' resulted in significantly higher outlays for power for several states and millions of households.

No. Enron committed fraud. Fraud is not the same as competing in a free market.

The point is that there are things which their very nature are necessary and thus monopoly over which are coercive.

Food, water, electricity are clear examples.

OK, so you endorse coercive monopolies. Interesting.

Personally, I would would prefer to have a choice, even for things that are "necessary." Choice doesn't mean that I support or endorse fraud. It does mean that I don't want to be coerced into a decision.

Again to be clear I am not against capitalism per se.

I merely point out that it is an error to think that capitalism itself doesn't have its own weak points.

It sounds like your definition of Capitalism is different than mine. For me, Capitalism implies free markets. Control for the benefit of some group is Collectivism; that's the opposite of Capitalism.

So you're saying patents are bad and should be abolished?

I haven't really thought about it before, but yes, on principle I guess patents should be abolished. I really don't want to have government involved in business in any way.

But you still haven't commented on the virtual tollbooth mentality which does exist in the form of companies like Microsoft and Google.

I personally am of the belief that access to computers and/or the internet should not be subject to the tollbooths of a profit seeking corporation, but will admit that ultimately the cost due to these institutions is relatively low...for now.

To the extent that any fraud or coercion is involved, the actions of any company or individual, including Microsoft and Google, should of course be limited.

I don't feel that I am forced to use Microsoft or Google's products. There are alternatives, such as Linux, Firefox, Yahoo, etc. They happen to have the best products in their respective fields, and for that they should be applauded, not punished. They both spend billions on research and development. I, for one, want that work to continue. I am therefore happy to pay for the benefits that I receive.

When you say that access to the Internet shouldn't be impeded by a profit-seeking company, then who should pay? The hardware and infrastructure that comprise the Internet obviously cost money. The public? Taxes? Do you honestly believe that the Internet would have seen the level of innovation it has if all profits were removed and the work was done by government? I think the system is much less expensive now than it ever would be or could be if it was run by government. Do you have even one example where something like that has ever ended up as anything less than disaster?

And you say you aren't against Capitalism? Wow.

[Chris Coles]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

Chris, thanks for the link. There are few things on the web for which I will use 45 mins. to listen, but from the intro of your link, I'll likely go back and hear the entire segment. The intro whetted my opinion that the Catholic Church should be entirely shut down because of its history of pedophilia and its handling of the matter, and I don't consider myself a "god-hater" or as anti-religion, so that is not my attraction.

If you write a paper in the contest, put it up, I'm rather sure it would be interesting.

Jim, everyone,

This just turned up from The Institute of Physics web site and makes a great end point to the discussion about religion.

Jul 31, 2009
Religion explained

Robert P Crease uncovers the secret of the conflict between science and religion in responses to a Physics World survey
When Physics World carried out a readers’ survey to mark its 20th anniversary in October 2008, in the main the editors took a light-hearted approach. They asked readers to answer nine multiple-choice questions on matters such as who inspired them to do physics, whether they mind being unpopular at parties, and what was the top physics discovery of the previous 20 years. A summary of the results appeared last year on the physicsworld.com blog (22 December 2008).


http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/39951

[c1ue]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

I don't feel that I am forced to use Microsoft or Google's products. There are alternatives, such as Linux, Firefox, Yahoo, etc. They happen to have the best products in their respective fields, and for that they should be applauded, not punished. They both spend billions on research and development. I, for one, want that work to continue. I am therefore happy to pay for the benefits that I receive.

When you say that access to the Internet shouldn't be impeded by a profit-seeking company, then who should pay? The hardware and infrastructure that comprise the Internet obviously cost money. The public? Taxes? Do you honestly believe that the Internet would have seen the level of innovation it has if all profits were removed and the work was done by government? I think the system is much less expensive now than it ever would be or could be if it was run by government. Do you have even one example where something like that has ever ended up as anything less than disaster?

And you say you aren't against Capitalism? Wow.

For people who are technically savvy, Firefox and Linux are fine.

For the 95% of the rest of the people - they are not.

That statement could equally apply to electricity. For those who are savvy enough to trade electricity contracts or to set up their own grid, public utilities are an impediment.

Ditto water. food. etc etc.

As for examples of where government had done just fine, there are too many to list, but here are a few:

1) National highway system
2) Tennessee Valley Authority power and water
3) NIH

You also seem to think that denial of monopoly means a nationalized internet or some such.

Sadly you are building a straw man.

Pacific Gas & Electric - merely one of a large number of regulated public utilities in the US - had $10.7B in revenue in 2008 with operating income of $2.261B and net income of $1.338B.

Total electricity sales revenue to residential customers was $140.582B in 2006 implying a total net income of around $17.58B.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electri.../table5_2.html

Microsoft in contrast had revenue of $60.4B, operating income of $22.492B and net income of $17.681B.

(M$ and PG&E data from their 2008 annual reports)

Do you pay more for your utility bills than your OS per year? per month? lifetime?

As you can see, the total US electrical utility revenue is more than twice M$'s, but the net income roughly equal. The former is a regulated monopoly, the latter is not.

As a contrast let's look at Kraft foods 2008 results: $42.201B revenue, $3.817B operating income, $2.577 net income.

There is a huge difference between regulation of monopoly and socialism/nationalized resources including that the former can still make plenty of money.

You also seem to forget that the internet arose as a direct consequence of government activities - initially defense but later as a more generalized means of rapid communication between research universities.

I can easily argue that the Internet would have occurred much later, if ever, were the impetus purely profit driven.

As for the billions spent on research and development - how much of this has resulted in actual improvements to the existing internet system? The core Google engine is still the same as when the company first began; the primary difference is the extent to which it is operated.

For that matter Microsoft - what are the gigantic improvements that have occurred in the past 20 years from their billions of development?

The changes to the x86 OS have been glacial at best. In fact the only reasons the newer OS's exist is due to hardware shifts and Microsoft's unwillingness to upgrade existing OS's to support these shifts.

Amazing what you can do by not supporting older drivers nor having backwards compatible instruction sets.

[cjppjc]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

Jim, everyone,

This just turned up from The Institute of Physics web site and makes a great end point to the discussion about religion.

Jul 31, 2009
Religion explained

Robert P Crease uncovers the secret of the conflict between science and religion in responses to a Physics World survey
When Physics World carried out a readers’ survey to mark its 20th anniversary in October 2008, in the main the editors took a light-hearted approach. They asked readers to answer nine multiple-choice questions on matters such as who inspired them to do physics, whether they mind being unpopular at parties, and what was the top physics discovery of the previous 20 years. A summary of the results appeared last year on the physicsworld.com blog (22 December 2008).


http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/39951

From the article:

But it is a messy subject, for most adults know that there are better and worse ways of living. Yet in reaction to the perceived excesses and hypocrisies of organized religion, many people name that desire to live better as being “spiritual”, “humanistic” or even “secular humanistic” — reserving the term “religious” for organized schemes to live better that they themselves deem deluded or impractical.



Organized religion is somewhat like the childrens game of telephone. After centuries the original message has become distorted. As with anything in the world, something is always moving forward or moving backward. This thread being a perfect example.

[cobben]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

"For that matter Microsoft - what are the gigantic improvements that have occurred in the past 20 years from their billions of development?

The changes to the x86 OS have been glacial at best. In fact the only reasons the newer OS's exist is due to hardware shifts and Microsoft's unwillingness to upgrade existing OS's to support these shifts."

??

M$ essentially stole Digital Equipment's OS VMS to create Windows NT when they realized they needed a real OS after successfully outmaneuvering IBM.

M$ has never been about true development, always about creating & maintaining monopoly.

[LabMonkey]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

Libertarians as the solution to an "economy brought to it's knees by the excesses of an unregulated financial class"? I don't think so! The current crises has been brought to you by the "get government off your back" crowd.

A strict libertarian would have let the banks eat the losses and allow the prudent investors to pickup the pieces.

[GRG55]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

Hmmmm,

Libertarians as the solution to an "economy brought to it's knees by the excesses of an unregulated financial class"? I don't think so! The current crises has been brought to you by the "get government off your back" crowd...

The disconnect in your argument is that while the rhetoric was "get government off your back" the reality was quite the opposite, wasn't it?

Out of control spending, new entitlement programs, more intrusions into personal liberties [homeland security], and so forth...

[LabMonkey]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

The disconnect in your argument is that while the rhetoric was "get government off your back" the reality was quite the opposite, wasn't it?

Not to mention the low interest rates which spurred the bubble in the first place.

[tsetsefly]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

There won't be a third party for the same reason that there isn't even a real second party: power has been consolidated. There is only the Incumbency Party, funded by campaign contributions from the Nomenklatura. The Founders idea of "Separation of Powers" has been buried. The only serious disagreement within the Washington beltway is over the division of the loot.

Agree with that part 100%

I think we need to study sociology/ mass psychology more to see how can people possibly vote over and over for the same, because this is not a US phenomena by any means, it happens all over the world.

Another thing is that most people don't care about politics, at all, that is just fact. At the risk of sounding condescending most people just care about getting a job, paying the bills and raising their family and that's hard enough so I guess you "cant" blame them.

If we want change it will take people that complain over the internet (us) but never get involved in politics. I have very little hope for change but I will try.

Currently power is consolidated and politics is rigged so those holding power (democrats and repulicans) get less and less competition every time.

The Ron Paul Campaign was a good and bad thing to see. It showed that the internet has increased word of mouth potential by 20x so much so that he was able to raise over 20 million (a figure that I think they didn't expect and mistakes were made because of it). But, at the same time it shows how you can get that much support and still be completely ignored by not only his own party (the insiders) but by the voters...

Then again I believe to a certain degree that every society deserves it's own leaders so...

Id rather focus on trying to create a new and truly free country somewhere than changing our current ones ( USA included)...

[Fiat Currency]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

M$ essentially stole Digital Equipment's OS VMS to create Windows NT when they realized they needed a real OS after successfully outmaneuvering IBM.

Sort of .... they "bought" David Cutler who was Digital's top O/S guy and played a key role in the development of VMS.

They did steal VAX-Cluster S/W though (something Cutler knew little about) and were caught red-handed with it. That lead to several "co-marketing" agreements between Digital and M$.

[Finster]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

... The author goes on to say that building a viable third party to restore democracy to America requires that Progressive intellectuals—Libertarians in modern parlance—roll up their pant legs, climb down from the Ivory Tower, and wade into the gutter of American politics.

What do you think?

Pretty much the same. Today's Libertarian Party is too much all-or-nothing and can't get very far politically because it's seen as being too far out. If libertarianism is to make any progress, it has to be more incremental. Maybe another party will take up small-L libertarianism and actually get somewhere with it. Maybe Ron Paul can mobilize the libertarian wing in the Republican Party ... after all, not much left there to lose...

[pwcmba]

Re: The worst rhyme of Great Depression history

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