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  • A Thought On US-China Decoupling

    Everyone knows that the US and China are in a weird kind of persistent economic imbalance, where China exports manufactured goods to the US at discount prices, and the US extensively borrows from China (see Economic M.A.D.). The imbalance is evidenced in a ~$20bln per month trade deficit just with China (when you add in a similar amount with the oil exporters, that accounts for most of that deficit).

    The arrangement is achieved, mainly, by a currency peg (keeping China's Yuan artificially low), as well as other minor contributing factors that nevertheless add up (such as poorly-controlled lending from the government, little environmental regulation, and slight protection for labor).

    What China gets out of this is rapid industrialization -- I would call it "hyperindustrialization" -- and the ability to rapidly enlist rural migrants into the urban workforce. Were it not for this ability, unrest might reach levels that would topple the government. Not only is this avoided (so far, at least) by China's quasi-capitalist path, but communist bureaucrats can take advantage of their positions to loot the country on their way out.

    What the US gets is endless cheap financing: China ends up with a surplus of dollars on an ongoing basis, and it must find something to do with them. Since there is a trade deficit with the US, then by definition, there is not enough stuff to buy from the US. Thus, the Chinese "park" the money (largely held at the central bank) in US financial assets. This is chiefly US government securities (Treasury and government-backed enterprise securities, i.e., mortgages). This all has kept interest rates down in the past few years (despite Fed rate increases, hence the inverted yield curve) and kept the financial bubble binge going -- most notably, the housing boom. The result has been a euphoric general sense of wealth; and for many people, plenty of paper wealth.

    The popular argument goes that China cannot break out of this imbalance, because they'd be hurt by losing the US as their primary customer for exports. I've already argued that this seems unlikely to hold, given that the US now accounts for less of China's exports than the Eurozone (less than 16%, and falling).

    But today I read a related claim by Shilling, which is that a slowdown in the US would propagate to China, causing deflationary financial distress there (essentially, a depression). This may be the case, but I do not see how it necessarily follows.

    The key reason is that this assumption neglects the fact that the imbalance with China is artificial -- it primarily comes from financial giveaways to the exporters, in the form of currency pegs and easy money from the state banking system. If it had formed naturally and was set to reverse by virtue of change in the US alone (i.e., endogenous, "business-cycle" demand slowdown), Shilling would have a strong point.

    But the Chinese have already paid heavily for this unnatural arrangement, where gravity is defied and their capital flows back "uphill" to the US. That capital, in sum, has flowed away from the bulk of the Chinese people (bureaucrats and export magnates notwithstanding). The situation is in fact worse: when capital flows and wealth fails to (the Chinese do not receive full value for the goods they export), then wealth is flowing uphill. The Chinese are actually giving away wealth to the US.

    You can tally the magnitude of this effect in the excess dollar reserves (estimated by Setser and others to be in the ballpark of $1 trillion) and bad loans (also likely around $1 trillion). That is, at the end of the day, money not being spent on the Chinese people. And this massive bias in the Chinese system is indirectly the cause of the massive unrest that remains, as there is a serious failure to evenly distribute the gains of China's recent development.

    China is shortchanging themselves of wealth. The direct implication of this insight is natural but surprising: China can only benefit by being decoupled from the US, because this wealth would stop flowing out of the country and away from the Chinese people.

    To put it in concrete terms, the money China now spends on propping up the dollar (and holding down the Yuan) and making bogus loans to exporters could be diverted to bail out individuals and companies (likely the very same exporters) that are hit by the effects of a US slowdown. The very same domestic Chinese agents that are hit by this slowdown, as Shilling rightly observes, could in fact be supported by the money now being sent out of the country to the US. This is likely what would have to happen to keep domestic unrest under control.

    Realistically, China could see maybe 1/3rd of the US-based demand fall off (China's manufacturing costs really are inherently lower than the US's, due to the lower cost basis), which would translate to something like 5% of output volume. Due to razor-thin margins at Chinese exporting companies, this would be a widespread problem, but likely not so much that it can't be subsidized away with the currency-peg money that would be freed up.

    In fact, this money would, handily, come in the form of more yuan earnings for the exporters, on an ongoing basis. They might not need bailouts at all.

    (This post syndicated from autoDogmatic).
    Last edited by FRED; January 20, 2007, 04:41 PM.

  • #2
    Re: A Thought On US-China Decoupling

    Good points, and I'll throw in a fact or two from a monetary view that backs up your point about a low likelihood of a China crash.

    China's nominal GDP is running at about 11-15% lately, and combined M3 and credit is running about 15-18%... for a gap of 3-4%.
    The US nominal GDP is running at about 3-4% and combined M3 and credit is running at about 10-11%... for a gap of about 7%. The Euro area is similar.

    In other words and to make my point, there's a lot of room for China's central bank to cushion any possible blows via some mild inflationary pumping.
    http://www.NowAndTheFuture.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: A Thought On US-China Decoupling

      This is a good point, thanks! Good to see I'm not totally off base.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: A Thought On US-China Decoupling

        Originally posted by bart
        Good points, and I'll throw in a fact or two from a monetary view that backs up your point about a low likelihood of a China crash.

        China's nominal GDP is running at about 11-15% lately, and combined M3 and credit is running about 15-18%... for a gap of 3-4%.
        The US nominal GDP is running at about 3-4% and combined M3 and credit is running at about 10-11%... for a gap of about 7%. The Euro area is similar.

        In other words and to make my point, there's a lot of room for China's central bank to cushion any possible blows via some mild inflationary pumping.
        does china have the channels/controls for credit so that it can stimulate consumption and healthy economic growth? my understanding is that a huge portion of the credit now goes to uneconomic state operated enterprises. any ideas of whether and how "pumping" would work?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: A Thought On US-China Decoupling

          Originally posted by jk
          does china have the channels/controls for credit so that it can stimulate consumption and healthy economic growth? my understanding is that a huge portion of the credit now goes to uneconomic state operated enterprises. any ideas of whether and how "pumping" would work?
          China runs several different economies in their country, with either 1.2 billion or 1.5 billion people it's easy to understand how they can. The uneconomic state side that you call it is currently in the process of building 50 nuclear power plants and building another 3 Gorge hydro project that will match the 3 Gorge hydro project that came on line in December. The uneconomic state side of the economy is also installing solar panels to the urban rooftops that they believe will provide 20% of the electricity needs of their urban areas.

          The state side of the economy should be completing about three new oil refineries that will be processing about 1.6 million barrels per day of Siberian oil that will soon be entering their country.

          The uneconomic state side of the economy has modernized it's military, last weeks shoot down of a old weather satellite was a small demonstration of this. A few weeks ago China announced their home grown jet that rivals the F-16 and the new Euro jet complete with it's own home grown air to air missiles. Their navy has had similar upgrades.

          On the uneconomic state side of the economy the Chinese are busy building homegrown brand names for computers, cell phones, flat screens autos and anything else the Russian and Asian markets will want to purchase. These purchases I'm sure like the oil flowing in from Russia will not involve the FRN's that China is currently accepting for trade with the US.

          As to why the Chinese continue to accept green pieces of paper in exchange for their labor, I just have to watch the export of US industry to China to understand why. Meanwhile in the US we're busy producing a generation of barbers and burger flippers to go along with our Wall Street bubbles.
          "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
          - Charles Mackay

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: A Thought On US-China Decoupling

            Originally posted by jk
            does china have the channels/controls for credit so that it can stimulate consumption and healthy economic growth? my understanding is that a huge portion of the credit now goes to uneconomic state operated enterprises. any ideas of whether and how "pumping" would work?
            What I was referring to with pumping isn't healthy economic growth but rather a stopgap to help them avoid a bigger negative effect from an export drop.

            Your example of uneconomic state operated enterprises is actually an example of pumping. They're actually tightening reserve ratios right now, but another simple example of pumping would be for them to lower them.
            http://www.NowAndTheFuture.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: A Thought On US-China Decoupling

              China's recent ASAT test also indicates that at least some high-level individuals in their government aren't losing sleep over China's alleged dependence on the US market. Furthermore, the displeasure expressed by the US is likely to merely underscore what a weak diplomatic hand we're playing. (We won't let you buy any more of our Treasuries!? Yeah, um, right…)

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: A Thought On US-China Decoupling

                Tet writes: "Meanwhile in the US we're busy producing a generation of barbers and burger flippers to go along with our Wall Street bubbles."

                Is there anything that can be done about this? Is there anything that should be done? What do Libertarians advise?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: A Thought On US-China Decoupling

                  Originally posted by tree
                  Tet writes: "Meanwhile in the US we're busy producing a generation of barbers and burger flippers to go along with our Wall Street bubbles."

                  Is there anything that can be done about this? Is there anything that should be done? What do Libertarians advise?
                  We have reached the point on the journey when you need to ask the question, who exactly were all those ex-KGB Generals who were sent out to loot and plunder mother Russia for personal gain and serve the Bank of England and the Federal Reserve back in the 1990's? When you're running a scam the scam only works when everyone decides who the mark really is, maybe just maybe some of these ex-KGB Generals are still really KGB Generals. Maybe just maybe the one left holding the bag this time will be the scammers themselves.

                  Libertarians I would think believe the market decides and pretty soon we find out who really makes up the market. The World is at war with the Hegemon D0llar and the Imperial Coin and they're getting pretty tired of paying it's inflationary tax. A market works best when currencies compete, looks to me like that's what the rest of the world is trying to create. What happens next is anybodies guess, lot's of stuff is going to happen and the end result is a much stronger d0llar, that should be very clear to anyone viewing the world with even just one eye open.
                  "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
                  - Charles Mackay

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: A Thought On US-China Decoupling

                    Originally posted by Tet
                    A market works best when currencies compete, looks to me like that's what the rest of the world is trying to create. What happens next is anybodies guess, lot's of stuff is going to happen and the end result is a much stronger d0llar, that should be very clear to anyone viewing the world with even just one eye open.
                    Tet,

                    It seems you have touted in several posts that a stronger bonar lies in the future. Such an opinion is contrary to what seems to be a lot of others who think the dollar is doomed, I tell you doomed.

                    Do you mind expounding on why you think the dollar at some point, and what point might that be, will be "a much stronger d0llar"? And if you believe that lies in the future should it not be "d^llar"?
                    Jim 69 y/o

                    "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

                    Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

                    Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: A Thought On US-China Decoupling

                      Originally posted by Jim Nickerson
                      Tet,

                      It seems you have touted in several posts that a stronger bonar lies in the future. Such an opinion is contrary to what seems to be a lot of others who think the dollar is doomed, I tell you doomed.

                      Do you mind expounding on why you think the dollar at some point, and what point might that be, will be "a much stronger d0llar"? And if you believe that lies in the future should it not be "d^llar"?
                      I hold several assets none of which begin to remotely come close to the assets that the Chinese and the Russians are holding in d0llars. I have only one goal for these assets that I hold and that is to see them grow. To begin to believe that the Russians and Chinese don't want to see their d0llar assets grow I think many are missing out on the moves they are making.

                      The Roman Empire and the British Empire worked by their ability to tax their colonies and surrounding nations, that tax was the inflation created by the Imperial Coin's devaluation. Now if the Imperial Coin doesn't inflate, you don't pay a tax. I would think the Russians and the Chinese might want to spend this tax they are sending to London and Wall Street in the form of inflation, on their own citizens. I realize this is a contrary opinion of what we are taught to believe how Russians and Chinese view their citizens.

                      Who paid off the IMF for Argentina and Brazil? That was Russian and Chinese investment that did that. Not having $25 billion on deposit in South America for the IMF limits the fractional reserve lending that this $25 billion was in turn creating. This $25 billion no longer being there from a fractional reserve standpoint probably denies the creation of at the very least $250 billion of additional d0llar denominated loans. Is this a weaker d0llar or a stronger d0llar? IMF debt has gone from $71 billion to about $13 billion in the last three years. What are the ramifications for d0llars being created from this missing $58 billion?

                      Russia easily could have continued to accept green pieces of paper for their oil and they'd probably be receiving close to $70 a barrel or more today if that was the goal. Russian exports to China will trade in either Yuan or Rubles, now with oil trading at $53 instead of $70 is this a stronger d0llar or a weaker d0llar? Keep in mind this is the biggest single reason a central bank holds d0llars is to purchase oil, Uncle Buck is buying 30% more oil.

                      This summer major south american economies who are currently using the d0llar for cross border trades will no longer use the Buck. South American cross border trade is probably as large as Russian/Chinese cross border trade. Makes me wonder if South America doesn't help some of their neighbors pay back some IMF loans with this savings. Interestingly enough, Ecuador's currency is the d0llar, what happens when they switch?

                      What happens if the world truly becomes a multi-polar world with competing currencies? How does the US afford a $450 billion military and a $200 billion CIA if the world is no longer paying the tab? What is in the world's best interest? A Strong D0llar? or a Bonar? Should be an interesting year. TWT.
                      "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
                      - Charles Mackay

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: A Thought On US-China Decoupling

                        i think that most analysts see the accumulation of dollars by, e.g., the chinese, as being non-price-sensitive. that is, their interest is economic, but not financial- they are not investing in dollar assets to see their investments generate a return, but for other reasons- i.e. to support their export oriented industries. your argument, tet, seems to be that the fewer transactions there are in dollars, the smaller the monetary base and the smaller the money supply. thus, the lower the demand for dollars for transactions like buying oil, the more valuable the dollar becomes. i think the money supply is being expanded in other ways, via derivatives, and there is no lack of liquidity bar a daisy-chain debt crisis. more broadly, you seem to think that the lower the demand for dollars, the stronger the dollar must become. i think supply and demand works the other way.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: A Thought On US-China Decoupling

                          Originally posted by Tet
                          I hold several assets none of which begin to remotely come close to the assets that the Chinese and the Russians are holding in d0llars. I have only one goal for these assets that I hold and that is to see them grow. To begin to believe that the Russians and Chinese don't want to see their d0llar assets grow I think many are missing out on the moves they are making.

                          The Roman Empire and the British Empire worked by their ability to tax their colonies and surrounding nations, that tax was the inflation created by the Imperial Coin's devaluation. Now if the Imperial Coin doesn't inflate, you don't pay a tax. I would think the Russians and the Chinese might want to spend this tax they are sending to London and Wall Street in the form of inflation, on their own citizens. I realize this is a contrary opinion of what we are taught to believe how Russians and Chinese view their citizens.

                          Who paid off the IMF for Argentina and Brazil? That was Russian and Chinese investment that did that. Not having $25 billion on deposit in South America for the IMF limits the fractional reserve lending that this $25 billion was in turn creating. This $25 billion no longer being there from a fractional reserve standpoint probably denies the creation of at the very least $250 billion of additional d0llar denominated loans. Is this a weaker d0llar or a stronger d0llar? IMF debt has gone from $71 billion to about $13 billion in the last three years. What are the ramifications for d0llars being created from this missing $58 billion?

                          Russia easily could have continued to accept green pieces of paper for their oil and they'd probably be receiving close to $70 a barrel or more today if that was the goal. Russian exports to China will trade in either Yuan or Rubles, now with oil trading at $53 instead of $70 is this a stronger d0llar or a weaker d0llar? Keep in mind this is the biggest single reason a central bank holds d0llars is to purchase oil, Uncle Buck is buying 30% more oil.

                          This summer major south american economies who are currently using the d0llar for cross border trades will no longer use the Buck. South American cross border trade is probably as large as Russian/Chinese cross border trade. Makes me wonder if South America doesn't help some of their neighbors pay back some IMF loans with this savings. Interestingly enough, Ecuador's currency is the d0llar, what happens when they switch?

                          What happens if the world truly becomes a multi-polar world with competing currencies? How does the US afford a $450 billion military and a $200 billion CIA if the world is no longer paying the tab? What is in the world's best interest? A Strong D0llar? or a Bonar? Should be an interesting year. TWT.
                          Thanks, Tet. I grasp what you are thinking for the greater part.

                          I don't understand to what assets you might be referring in the opening sentence above. It seems to me that if you expect the bonar to strengthen, then you would want to be holding the same thing in bonars that the Chinese and Russians are holding in bonars--whatever in the world that might be. I assume when you say the assets you hold not coming close to the assets the Chinese and Russians hold, you are not referencing quantity.
                          Jim 69 y/o

                          "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

                          Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

                          Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: A Thought On US-China Decoupling

                            Originally posted by Jim Nickerson
                            Thanks, Tet. I grasp what you are thinking for the greater part.

                            I don't understand to what assets you might be referring in the opening sentence above. It seems to me that if you expect the bonar to strengthen, then you would want to be holding the same thing in bonars that the Chinese and Russians are holding in bonars--whatever in the world that might be. I assume when you say the assets you hold not coming close to the assets the Chinese and Russians hold, you are not referencing quantity.
                            Russian Central Bank is holding about $300 billion bonars and they tell me China's Central Bank is holding over a $1 trillion of them. You could buy a lot of haircuts and burgers with that kind of cash. Diversification of this asset from their Central Bank viewpoint doesn't involve selling what they have, it involves selling more of what they produce in other currencies.

                            I'm sure the Federal Reserve and the Bank of England still have plenty of tricks up their sleeve, Bushes comment about pouring another billion barrels of crude into a hole someplace comes to mind, this was an act of desparation in order to maintain crude's high prices. Events from Russia owning Sakhalin II might just be enough to counter Bushes proposal. This is going to be a very interesting year for the bonar.
                            "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
                            - Charles Mackay

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: A Thought On US-China Decoupling

                              Originally posted by jk
                              i think that most analysts see the accumulation of dollars by, e.g., the chinese, as being non-price-sensitive. that is, their interest is economic, but not financial- they are not investing in dollar assets to see their investments generate a return, but for other reasons- i.e. to support their export oriented industries. your argument, tet, seems to be that the fewer transactions there are in dollars, the smaller the monetary base and the smaller the money supply. thus, the lower the demand for dollars for transactions like buying oil, the more valuable the dollar becomes. i think the money supply is being expanded in other ways, via derivatives, and there is no lack of liquidity bar a daisy-chain debt crisis. more broadly, you seem to think that the lower the demand for dollars, the stronger the dollar must become. i think supply and demand works the other way.
                              Tet,

                              I think jk raised a reasonable point with regard to the issue of supply and demand, perhaps you missed seeing it. I wonder how you would counter the way supply and demand presumably affects markets as it pertains to the bonar/d0llar and your proposition as you put forth above?
                              Jim 69 y/o

                              "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

                              Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

                              Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

                              Comment

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