French official suggested Bush was behind September 11

[Guest]

French official suggested Bush was behind September 11

PARIS (Reuters) - A senior French politician, now a minister in President Nicolas Sarkozy's government, suggested last year that U.S. President George W. Bush might have been behind the September 11, 2001 attacks, according to a website.

[Guest]

Re: French official suggested Bush was behind September 11

Il est incroyable ! Un plein ministre emplumé du gouvernement de Sarkozy qui croit fermement, et proclame publiquement, que la rationalité a entièrement abandonné le gouvernement des USA ? Les Etats-Unis et la France ont-ils été les alliés culturels pendant des siècles ?
Je comprends que les Français sont considérés donquichottesques (Quixotic), mais peut-être ceci porte la métaphore de Quixote de mettre aux tailles absurdes ?

[Tet]

Re: French official suggested Bush was behind September 11

Il est incroyable ! Un plein ministre emplumé du gouvernement de Sarkozy qui croit fermement, et proclame publiquement, que la rationalité a entièrement abandonné le gouvernement des USA ? Les Etats-Unis et la France ont-ils été les alliés culturels pendant des siècles ?
Je comprends que les Français sont considérés donquichottesques (Quixotic), mais peut-être ceci porte la métaphore de Quixote de mettre aux tailles absurdes ?

This is pretty tame when one compares what the German intelligence guys were saying after 9-11. Imagine what happens if this attack occurs two or three hours into the market action instead of before the market opens. Good thing our enemies were too stupid to plan the attack at a time that would really matter. Eight down days in a row leading up to this event, what did you think was going to happen? More money is made on Wall Street by those short the market between March 2001 and October than has ever in the history of man ever been made, making Tulips seem pretty tame by comparison. Not the first time a bomb goes off, something similar before WWI if I remember correctly, thousands were thrown in prison that time. What really happened, obviously we'll never be allowed to find out.

[Guest]

Re: French official suggested Bush was behind September 11

Hi Tet -

I grew up in Europe, living there twenty years. One reason why I so much admire Tony Blair (a guy you almost certainly don't much like) is because he saw a cultural link between old and new worlds as a critical anchor for stability and fostering of pluralistic systems across the world in the 21st Century. We forget, but dozens of countries have emerged into pluralistic democracy since the end of the cold war. Why, do you suppose?

Yes, I know, the Western economies can be accused of many unsightly things, and my concept today therefore seems staid to the point of dull and even stupid. But without finessing the point, you only need to put them side by side with REAL one party states in many other parts of the world to see which model is the less flawed one. And yes, I am aware with all the "imperialist this" and "imperialist that" bandied about that this notion is highly unfashionable today among all the political dandies.

With all their flaws and warts, these western nations have a heritage of parlamentary democracies which the world can (and has!) adopted as a framework for international pluralistic political growth of many other societies into the 21st century - assuming we don't all dry up and blow away in a new global dustbowl due to climate change - or "human mange syndrome" as Rajiv has so caustically described it.

Now I know all the arguments you'd marshall about how vile "Western Democracies" are as a model, but just put them aside for one moment.

I already well understand your world view, and I even enjoy the maverick quality of your take - namely that these western countries are best described as a rather decrepit band of formerly swaggering "thieves and brigands" and that they will meet the end of their unsightly profiteering career at the hands of a rising far east, who'll presumably start the cycle of brigandage all over again, as history has illustrated all ascendant groups do.

The fact you throw the Russians, with their history of Tsarism into the mix of rising star states who will teach the west some profitable lessons leaves me non-plussed, but never mind.

That's all fine and good - maybe some of it is true. What "eats my liver" so to speak about France - and it's certainly not France alone - it's a European malady of which I am well acquainted as I was born and raised there and lived there half my life - well, my view of what's at work here is actually quite damning of the Europeans (on this one narrow issue), and I'm sure it would or will raise many hackles among readers over there who should chance upon this post.

There is a kind of infantilism, where the "sport" of Anti-Americanism became so entrenched, increasingly mindless and popular among Europeans that it ceased to be any intelligent critique of America (although in recent years God knows we could use a constructive critique of our current economic and social mismanagement).

The "sport" ceased to be any kind of real critique and became something mindlessly emotional - a kind of adolescent (astonishing considering EU is the old world) search for a pan-European identity. I will be denied and derided by Europeans endlessly for this, but after 25 years living there and another 25 living here, a good quarter century on each side of the Atlantic, I have a good sense of the bottom line here.

For Europeans, and France at the lead of the EU, there has been a sort of "right of passage" back to regarding the new consolidated EU as a genuine global player - after WW2 if you like. Because the US was undamaged by WW2, and Europe was bombed to bits, there was a huge US global presence in the first postwar decades, which European nations could not hope to match.

Today they very much do match the US - but kids throughout all of Europe's Universities are now inculcated with a sense of outrage thinking that America has had it's boot firmly on their necks since 1945 - hence even 20 - 30 years out of University you encounter well educated Europeans who swear EU has only struggled to gain it's sovereignty from America by dint of it's own valiant independence struggles. I have to laugh at that.

It is a crock of bullshit. America has pulled ALL the coals out of the fire for EU nations for decades. But the "adolescent syndrome" requires that America be painted as a genuinely repressive entity that's only kept the EU down, and an ensuing prodigious vanity takes over whereby increasingly fanciful theories are put about as to why Europe represents a shining beacon of democracy and America represents it's polar opposite.

Decades after the onset of this "teenager searching for identity" syndrome, it reaches it's absurd apotheosis and you have full-fledged ministers of one of Europe's leading governments calmly stating for public consumption that the US Government masterminded 9/11 to stage a silent coup. In the next breath such a Government minister would probably go on to extol France's contributions to the triumph of Western democracy, although of all the EU nations their country traversed several republics and a couple of very stormy empires (of exceedingly brief duration) before arriving at it's current incarnation. The French have been more prone to violent putsch than any other country in Western Europe in the last 300 years!

Today it's a state where the 35 hour workweek is enshrined as the answer to "social justice" and to the rise of the Pacific Tigers - who will handily eat their lunch - where every government service is enshrined by 2 generations of citizens as a divine right (i'm all for the services too, as long as you don't go completely broke in the process!).

The government of Sarkozy looks excellent. I am deliriously in love with France's culture, flair, sophistication, the attractiveness and flair of their people, and their sense of how to live life. I lived all my years in Europe in the Meditteranean countries and I am steeped in the Latin experience of Europe, so I understand the French very well and admire them.

What they may fail to understand is the sheer wanton, acidic corrosiveness with which they destroy the long and very admirable bonds between their nation and ours, with the infantile, loony comments of such a government minister. Their minister's comments about our own Government having "masterminded" 9/11 display an utterly infantile, regressed, hopeless abdication of any ability to make empirical observations, or to exercise diplomacy informed by political science, regarding one of their country's oldest and closest allies.

There are hundreds of millions of really decent, exemplary Europeans - most of them with FAR MORE of a sense of history than our own people. But they do not seem galvanized to stand up and be counted, to denounce the stupid, obscurantist ravings of a handful of politicians indulging this adolescent nonsense, if you can dignify it by the term, of convincing their public that America has fully descended into Autarchy.

They are pointing a finger at America for flaws in democracy, and we indeed are now at risk, but we are a long, long way from losing our Democracy yet, and I would not underestimate the considerable stubbornness of Americans to not ultimately let that privilege slide from their grasp.

What seems lost on the French Government overseeing this Minister's incautious remarks, is the meanness of spirit and shabbiness, which would prompt such a denunciation of American democracy right directly within the context of our worst national tragedy in fifty years.

If I were Sarkozy I'd give this raving "minister" his walking papers without hesitation. It was a stupid, myopic comment, providing the Government of France no conceivable advantage. Highly damaging to relations with one of their oldest allies.

[Tet]

Re: French official suggested Bush was behind September 11

The fact you throw the Russians, with their history of Tsarism into the mix of rising star states who will teach the west some profitable lessons leaves me non-plussed, but never mind.

Students of history know that without the help of Tsarism the US would be speaking French today, or at least the southern portion of the country. That's a long story for another day.

What they may fail to understand is the sheer wanton, acidic corrosiveness with which they destroy the long and very admirable bonds between their nation and ours, with the infantile, loony comments of such a government minister. Their minister's comments about our own Government having "masterminded" 9/11 display an utterly infantile, regressed, hopeless abdication of any ability to make empirical observations, or to exercise diplomacy informed by political science, regarding one of their country's oldest and closest allies.

If I were Sarkozy I'd give this raving "minister" his walking papers without hesitation. It was a stupid, myopic comment, providing the Government of France no conceivable advantage. Highly damaging to relations with one of their oldest allies.

We live in a TV world and today we believe in what looks good on TV. I can assure you that this French Housing Minister Christine Boutin who these comments originate from is a fat, ugly cow. She would have trouble convincing the masses that the earth revolves around the sun if the media chose to disagree with her position. France must discredit this type of thinking and who better to discredit than a fat ugly cow? Trying to discredit German Foreign Intelligence is a little harder to do, that's why their comments about the US administrations tie-ins to 9-11 never get mentioned. Spain bombing and the Queen's 7-7-7 bombing last year are being reviewed so it's best to discredit any conspiracy theories that fat ugly cows might have.



I don't think you're in a position to know what I think, my veiws are very simple. Rule number one Never bet against the Fed, all other rules refer back to Rule number one. I live to put food on the table for my family and so far my rule has done just that. If satan himself told me of a sure thing I wouldn't bet against him. I do though recognize that we live in a one party system, no matter who we vote for the Federalist Party always wins. Remember rule number one never bet against the Fed, which is indeed the Federalist Party. It's interesting to watch the Federalization of Europe, looks like some of the member nations would rather remain nations. The US required a War Between the States in order to get Federalized, we'll find out in the next year or two what's required for the Europeans to become Federalized, maybe they never do. Maybe your boy Sarkozy will play the role of Lincoln and slaughter a few hundred thousand Europeans to get the Federal ball rolling. For me Europe is just the tails side of the Imperial Coin anyway.

My bankster just sent me an e-mail stating that the price of crude is up 45% since January and yet it's lower than it was last year. Interesting comment for him to make and over the weekend the Saudi's decided to accept less d0llars for a barrel of crude and required more Euro's or Yen for August deliveries, that's an interesting development. I like how the Saudi's pull this off on nontrading days. Bank of Canada meets tomorrow with the Canadian D0llar selling at 30-year highs. Next week IMF should submit their second quarter income statement and balance sheet, could be some interesting developments for the mighty metal if the IMF needs to sell some assets. Now these are the things I try to stay more in tune with in order to continue putting food on the table. Best of luck and thanks for your reply.

[Rajiv]

Re: French official suggested Bush was behind September 11

They are pointing a finger at America for flaws in democracy, and we indeed are now at risk, but we are a long, long way from losing our Democracy yet, and I would not underestimate the considerable stubbornness of Americans to not ultimately let that privilege slide from their grasp.

You might like reading this interview of Joe Bageant namely "Eat, Fight, Fuck, Pray"

Joshua Frank: So Joe, what the hell is going on with the redneck strain of the working class anyway? Why do they seem more apt to embrace evangelism rather than a labor union? Is it, as psychologists would say, learned helplessness, or worse, idiocy?
Joe Bageant: Well, Josh, that’s a pretty broad brush you’re painting with there.
.
.
.
We have been taught to use these ethnic, regional and racial labels to cover up the real issue in America that the rich want keep hidden another 200 years—that we are a classist country. That one class owns pretty much the whole country these days and that all the rest are left to suck hind tit and pretend they are all members of something called “the middle class.” The only real middle class is that thin layer of commissars, lawyers, teachers, journalists, and other caterers to the empire, those people necessary to manage it and count the beans, dumb down the kids and lock up enough people to keep the privatized gulags in business.

Anyway, I assume you are referring the heartland white working class people who attend fundamentalist churches. Ever since around 1800 about one-third of white America has been fundamentalist Christians, about one-third of Americans have had a born again experience. The thing that is different now is that these churches have access to political power. They were welcomed across the church-state wall of separation by cynical GOP strategists to whom giving the Republicans another chance to sack Washington, loot the national kitty and maybe pull off a good oil raid in the Middle East, was more important than our constitution. Now that they’ve let John Calvin’s wooly beast into to tent, we find it chewing on the constitution and generally stinking up the joint—it’s not going to leave without a fight.

As to the last parts of your question: When it comes to embracing the church instead of a labor union, I can remember a time when the churches stood behind the labor unions. Have we learned to be helpless? Man, we are helpless. Capitalist conditioning has replaced citizenship with consumerism. I mean, what are you or I doing? I write a book so the global publishing chain of Bertelsmann makes more money; you and I both sit here on the Internet spewing electrons across circuit boards that keep Bill Gates and the stock brokers farting through silk while we preach to the choir who bought our books. There are far better alternatives. We could grab some axe handles and heat up the tar bucket and start to burn some shit down. That still works you know.

[Guest]

Re: French official suggested Bush was behind September 11

Rajiv,

Just in case you thought my distancing myself from fashionable cynicism about America means I think it's all about "God and Country" with the God part inextricably intertwined with the State - you may be projecting a stereotype on me. Let me be really clear.

If I see the real and present danger this country is taken over by Creationists and Fundamentalists, bulldozing the history or anthropology classes out of our schools - I know viscerally which side I am on, and it is most emphatically for the preservation of the separation of Church and State this country was founded on.

This is one of the few issues that inspires me to real militancy. I also get angry and disgusted about it, that a country that can put a man on the moon should be too depleted of cultural vitality to acknowlege the Origin of Species in it's classrooms. They cower in fear of science, so they wish to dump the Age of Enlightenment down the toilet lest it contaminate their children's minds.

I grew up five blocks from the Vatican. I used to walk across St. Peter's square for a cappuccino on Saturday mornings. Ironically, Italians are some of the most relaxed people on religious ideology you could hope to find - very pragmatic and highly creative people (if you admire the industrial creativity embodied in Lamborghinis, for example, you'll understand how modern and at the same time creative they can be). Yes, I agree, aggressive evangelism (and creationism) in US education is a big, big threat.

Mr. Janszen may have almost lost his cool on the topic of allowing Creationism to be proselytized on this website. I applaud him for it, if being so outspoken is permitted while trying to maintain a non-partisan website. You, and I, and I'd venture an astute guess Tet also, would ALL lose our cool about it. The reason we all gravitate to this website, just as example, is because we all heartily dislike the encroachment of obscurantism (religious fundamentalism encroaching on secular institutions = cultural decline) in this country today.

We adhere to the memory of America as it was (still fairly recently) at it's most enlightened - determinedly secular, yet with a vast freedom for all faiths. And yes, this existed Rajiv, only 30-40 years ago, despite the long tradition of fundamentalist Christians here alongside, and despite it's attempts at encroachment upon secular government, which have been pretty constant off and on for 200+ years.

Your quoted character referencing the period in which churches in America were allied with the struggling labor unions indeed refers to a heroic chapter. But that era is gone now Rajiv. The Unions transitioned from being protectors of the oppressed and deriving a high stature from that, to being a sclerotic establishment of their own.

Believe me, I grew up in Italy, a country where Unions have a total lock on the government itself. They are FAR more established in the EU than here - and what they have wrought is no prettier than what you decry here in the US. What was noble fifty years ago became a farce and a rot of vested interests. The net result is every bit as bad for the disadvantaged segments remaining.

I'm from four generations of Democrats - believe me, my opinion is learned from careful observation in multiple countries spanning the Atlantic (and also off-topic 3 years in West Africa) , not at my daddy's knee.

Capitalism in the western nations ( not in the far east!) has transitioned out of the heroic era. It's something more late stage now. You will not find shining examples in nations beyond these shores that will hugely inspire you further. If you choose to escape from suffocating American Christian evangelicals, incestuously lobbying their influence into the state, you'll only stumble into a European country (have you lived there?) where entirely different suffocations will assail you - arguably somewhat worse for your income and professional health!

I assure you, what you regard as the increasingly medieval nature of the classes in America is fairly mild in comparison with some of the stratification (and stultification) of classes you'll encounter in Europe. Please take my word on this - I am not putting it to you lightly - some of these are much more class bound societies!!

A professional with a marketable skill remains far and away (despite our very lackluster present government) more upwardly mobile in America than you may believe in Europe. I know, I experimented that 'glass ceiling " on my own hide in Europe for a decade of my professional life. Coming back to the US opened lots of doors.

This is part of what's wrong in the US - the "fashionable malaise" that has so many people convinced this place is the absolute donkey's butt of the world. They need to live and work for lengthy stretches abroad more!

Yes, public transport is much better, yes secondary schools (in some countries) are much better, No, lots of Universities are not necessarily any better, and some worse, Yes, national health seems far more civilized, but try starting ANY KIND of small business and strangle yourself in taxes twice those over here. European states will have you walking on razor blades of personal risk if you are a small business startup. You can take that from me as truth Rajiv.

You don't need to tell me all of the ways America really does display the donkey's butt. I am plenty sophisticated to see all the ugly warts on the creature - and I can see every ugly sagging feature showing how we are sliding down into cultural and economic decline.

What I wish to point out to you is that many, many countries in Europe and other parts of the world display if anything even worse cultural stagnation. You may need to travel around Paris's immigrant ghettos just to get a more balanced view. They give new meaning to the term hopeless.

Or (and here I'm being decidedly politically incorrect) look at the shining jewel that is Singapore and wonder how people live in such a a goldfish bowl without political parties. Talk about golden handcuffs! You can find some part of any aspect in society which you consider imperative - unbridled free speech, or trains that run on time with clean stations, or superb national health with super high taxes, or a well run gleaming city-state like Singapore run by one family (and no, the Bush Family do NOT run America, although they'd sure like to).

The list goes on. The trick is not to look at the world like an idealist. It will ALWAYS be fearsome, so compromised it looks like a hopeless pile of shit - you can find a piece of whatever you are looking for somewhere else. Just be prepared to do without all the other things you left behind and took for granted!