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andy xie: chinese corporations are "playing" a property bubble

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  • andy xie: chinese corporations are "playing" a property bubble

    [after discussing japan's zombie companies and its high debt levels, and predicting another leg down for anglo-saxon economies in 2010, xie goes on to discuss china...]

    China can learn a lot from Japan's experience as well. Its bubble formed when companies began focusing on financial investments rather than core business. In the 1980s, Japan's corporate sector tapped the corporate bond market and raised massive amounts of capital for asset purchases.

    Recently, Chinese enterprises borrowed money and pumped it into asset markets. They essentially provided leverage for asset markets. When leverage was rising, asset inflation occurred, letting companies book profits that were many times greater than operating profits from core businesses. That gave them greater incentive to pursue asset appreciation rather than operating profitability. The corporate sector became a shadow banking system for financing asset speculation.

    Thus, China's corporate sector is now behaving in a way similar to what was seen in Japan two decades ago. China's businesses increasingly focus on asset investment rather than core business. When an asset bubble boosts corporate profits, it seems benign at first. Nobody sees the harm. However, when businesses earn profits from the investments in each other rather than their corporate businesses, their operating profitability deteriorates because they don't invest in their core businesses anymore. Accounting profitability is just a bubble.

    As I traveled across China recently, it was rare to hear about a business whose officials are enthusiastic about their core business. But everyone seems excited about financial activities. The lending boom in the first half of 2009 seems to have been channeled mostly into asset markets by the corporate sector.


    In particular, property seems to have become a main profit source for most big businesses. China's corporate borrowing one way or another goes into the land market. And property development has become the most important source of profit for China's corporate sector. If a manufacturing business is buoyant, odds are it is profiting from property development. The banking sector reports high profitability due to direct or indirect loans for property development. Property development profit is actually from land appreciation. If property development profitability is measured according to land price at sale time, the development itself would not be profitable.

    A bubble rises when there is excess money supply. Is the current, excessive monetary growth due to demand or supply? We can argue that point forever. When the former chairman of the U.S. Federal Reserve, Alan Greenspan, said a central bank couldn't stop a bubble, he meant money demand would rise regardless of interest rates. I disagree. If a central bank targets monetary growth in line with nominal GDP growth, a big bubble can't happen. Aside from central bank failure, then, the most important microeconomic element in a bubble is the shadow banking system.

    Regulators limit what banks can do by imposing capital requirements. The international standard is 8 percent of total assets, but banks can use accounting tricks to minimize their requirements. But a big accounting loophole can lead to disaster. For example, the loose restrictions on off-balance holdings were major factors in the global credit bubble. Most regulators are now tightening accounting rules for capital requirements.

    Shadow banking is a less noticed but more important factor in creating bubbles. Most analysts compare it to the hedge fund industry, which provided leverage for financial speculators with little capital. The shadow banking system is much more because industrial firms engaging in financial activities are more important. Entities such as GE Capital and GMAC provided massive leverage to asset markets with little capital. A shadow banking system is essential to a big bubble.

    China's corporate sector increasingly looks like a shadow banking system. It raises funds from banks, through commercial bills or the corporate bond market, and then channels the funds into the land market. The resulting land inflation underwrites corporate profitability and improves their creditworthiness in the short term.

    The same thing happened in Japan.

    To control China's expanding real estate bubble, the country's regulators must limit monetary growth to nominal GDP growth. Faster monetary growth accommodates and supports the bubble. To understand consequences of ignoring this reality, we need only look at Japan today.

    http://english.caijing.com.cn/2009-09-16/110251471.html

  • #2
    Re: andy xie: chinese corporations are "playing" a property bubble

    Andy Xie may be right, but as we've seen in Japan and in the U.S. more recently, such easy money leveraging into asset inflation to generate a bubble can be highly profitable for all who benefit from the bubble on the way up, and these bubbles can last for several years at least. Have not we seen and now convinced ourselves, that notwistanding words to the contrary, governments (and populations I would argue) want bubbles, and in fact they need bubbles.

    So is this piece by Andy like the those written in 2003-2004 by folks in the U.S. who also saw the bubble forming and predicting its ultimate and inevitable demise?

    One could have made a lot of money riding that bubble for a few years.

    And it looks to me like $HSI and $SSEC are about to breakout to the upside ...

    I'm confused as to why iTulip does not weigh in on this, as after all EJ has predicted the rise of a new bubble all along, and perphaps it starts in China.

    The equity market downtun began 2 years ago next month. Why isn't this the time to join the next bubble? EJ, FRED, etc?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: andy xie: chinese corporations are "playing" a property bubble

      But EJ said the Chinese market was due for a significant fall in the 4th quarter

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: andy xie: chinese corporations are "playing" a property bubble

        The chinese property bubble is already way more serious than Japan in the 80s.

        [media]


        [/media]

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: andy xie: chinese corporations are "playing" a property bubble

          Originally posted by vinoveri View Post
          Andy Xie may be right, but as we've seen in Japan and in the U.S. more recently, such easy money leveraging into asset inflation to generate a bubble can be highly profitable for all who benefit from the bubble on the way up, and these bubbles can last for several years at least. Have not we seen and now convinced ourselves, that notwistanding words to the contrary, governments (and populations I would argue) want bubbles, and in fact they need bubbles.

          So is this piece by Andy like the those written in 2003-2004 by folks in the U.S. who also saw the bubble forming and predicting its ultimate and inevitable demise?

          One could have made a lot of money riding that bubble for a few years.

          And it looks to me like $HSI and $SSEC are about to breakout to the upside ...

          I'm confused as to why iTulip does not weigh in on this, as after all EJ has predicted the rise of a new bubble all along, and perphaps it starts in China.

          The equity market downtun began 2 years ago next month. Why isn't this the time to join the next bubble? EJ, FRED, etc?
          Go for it Dude!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: andy xie: chinese corporations are "playing" a property bubble

            Originally posted by vinoveri View Post
            Andy Xie may be right, but as we've seen in Japan and in the U.S. more recently, such easy money leveraging into asset inflation to generate a bubble can be highly profitable for all who benefit from the bubble on the way up, and these bubbles can last for several years at least. Have not we seen and now convinced ourselves, that notwistanding words to the contrary, governments (and populations I would argue) want bubbles, and in fact they need bubbles.

            So is this piece by Andy like the those written in 2003-2004 by folks in the U.S. who also saw the bubble forming and predicting its ultimate and inevitable demise?

            One could have made a lot of money riding that bubble for a few years.

            And it looks to me like $HSI and $SSEC are about to breakout to the upside ...

            I'm confused as to why iTulip does not weigh in on this, as after all EJ has predicted the rise of a new bubble all along, and perphaps it starts in China.

            The equity market downtun began 2 years ago next month. Why isn't this the time to join the next bubble? EJ, FRED, etc?

            HSI and SSEC charts look substantially different; HSI looks like it can go higher, in a cyclical bull rebound, SSEC looks like its' cyclic bull/bear rally/your term here could already be done(subject to change).

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: andy xie: chinese corporations are "playing" a property bubble

              Originally posted by goadam1 View Post
              Go for it Dude!
              Thanks for the advice. Very helpful. :p

              Maybe I'll wait a little longer seeing that I didn't "go for it" 6 months ago or 3 months ago ... you know that markets gotta tank any day, or month, or year now.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: andy xie: chinese corporations are "playing" a property bubble

                Originally posted by vinoveri View Post
                Thanks for the advice. Very helpful. :p

                Maybe I'll wait a little longer seeing that I didn't "go for it" 6 months ago or 3 months ago ... you know that markets gotta tank any day, or month, or year now.
                I'm saying, don't blame fred or ej. They have been very clear on how they feel about markets, bubbles and inflation. Trade it if you feel you are missing out. Put stop loss thingies. But what is going on with money supply, global trade, productive economy, energy, financial regulation doesn't make many winners on the ground level does it? Bubblenomics!!! Let's all get rich!!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: andy xie: chinese corporations are "playing" a property bubble

                  Originally posted by goadam1 View Post
                  I'm saying, don't blame fred or ej. They have been very clear on how they feel about markets, bubbles and inflation. Trade it if you feel you are missing out. Put stop loss thingies. But what is going on with money supply, global trade, productive economy, energy, financial regulation doesn't make many winners on the ground level does it? Bubblenomics!!! Let's all get rich!!!
                  nobody's blaming anyone (except oneself hopefully), and we are each responsible for our own decisions, no doubt about it. wouldn't be here if I didn't have great respect for iTulip's analyses and forecasts.

                  It is the timing of what's to unfold that I'm struggling with. You're right that none of what you reference is helping in the real world. Unfortunately, the powers that be obviously thing the real world seems to depend and will mimick the "success" of the FIRE economy.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: andy xie: chinese corporations are "playing" a property bubble

                    Originally posted by vinoveri View Post
                    nobody's blaming anyone (except oneself hopefully), and we are each responsible for our own decisions, no doubt about it. wouldn't be here if I didn't have great respect for iTulip's analyses and forecasts.

                    It is the timing of what's to unfold that I'm struggling with. You're right that none of what you reference is helping in the real world. Unfortunately, the powers that be obviously thing the real world seems to depend and will mimick the "success" of the FIRE economy.
                    Where's Metalman?

                    Reread some stuff. Plenty here about bubbles, the two economies, inflation, asset prices vs. real economy vs. commodities.

                    Comment

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